1 00:00:02,710 --> 00:00:29,349 [Music] 2 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:35,000 steinberg our co-host this week is Greg 3 00:00:40,670 --> 00:00:37,170 Bishop a reminder to listeners starting 4 00:00:43,310 --> 00:00:40,680 July 11th the power cast will be heard 5 00:00:46,850 --> 00:00:43,320 on local stations in the United States 6 00:00:48,290 --> 00:00:46,860 from the gcn radio network and our times 7 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:48,300 can be a little bit different on Sunday 8 00:00:55,790 --> 00:00:51,930 it's gonna be from 6 o'clock until 9 9 00:00:57,860 --> 00:00:55,800 p.m. three hours of US Central Time 10 00:00:59,779 --> 00:00:57,870 so you have to factor that into wherever 11 00:01:03,410 --> 00:00:59,789 you are will still be available online 12 00:01:05,329 --> 00:01:03,420 or live and on-demand streaming and you 13 00:01:09,740 --> 00:01:05,339 can still download from iTunes that's 14 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:09,750 July 11th 6:00 to 9:00 p.m. why are they 15 00:01:13,940 --> 00:01:12,060 extending us to 3 hours because you have 16 00:01:16,550 --> 00:01:13,950 the local news on the hour which takes 17 00:01:18,609 --> 00:01:16,560 five minutes plus commercials yeah that 18 00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:18,619 two local spots and a few other things 19 00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:20,310 suddenly we're here for three hours 20 00:01:26,289 --> 00:01:23,460 that's how it goes Greg welcome aboard 21 00:01:28,819 --> 00:01:26,299 so we're going to soon be famous 22 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:28,829 we're already famous well we're almost 23 00:01:36,230 --> 00:01:33,570 famous now sir famouser er yeah okay now 24 00:01:39,050 --> 00:01:36,240 we have a really crazy form folks if you 25 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:39,060 haven't checked it out forum dot for the 26 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:42,210 para cast comm and our listeners are 27 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:44,970 nothing if not outspoken so when Walter 28 00:01:49,730 --> 00:01:47,369 Bosley Greg's friend and sometimes 29 00:01:53,210 --> 00:01:49,740 co-host was on the show a few weeks back 30 00:01:56,300 --> 00:01:53,220 a lot of impact people question his 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:56,310 credentials everything he said so let's 32 00:02:01,520 --> 00:01:58,290 set the record straight Greg have you 33 00:02:03,770 --> 00:02:01,530 actually confirmed that Walter Bosley 34 00:02:05,780 --> 00:02:03,780 has the background and the government 35 00:02:07,149 --> 00:02:05,790 that he says he does yeah I've confirmed 36 00:02:09,219 --> 00:02:07,159 it he 37 00:02:11,229 --> 00:02:09,229 offered it up himself actually no that's 38 00:02:14,559 --> 00:02:11,239 right after I asked I was I made a joke 39 00:02:16,119 --> 00:02:14,569 when we were first speaking after I told 40 00:02:17,949 --> 00:02:16,129 how I'd met him and then everybody else 41 00:02:19,150 --> 00:02:17,959 ran away when they found out he that he 42 00:02:20,770 --> 00:02:19,160 used to be in the government I 43 00:02:22,839 --> 00:02:20,780 immediately went up and started talking 44 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:22,849 to him at a conference David Childress 45 00:02:26,890 --> 00:02:24,890 was putting on I said you know people 46 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:26,900 always ask about credentials it's you 47 00:02:30,670 --> 00:02:29,030 know I guess I trust you he said that's 48 00:02:31,930 --> 00:02:30,680 okay I'll bring him in for you so he 49 00:02:34,300 --> 00:02:31,940 brought him into my show and he actually 50 00:02:37,270 --> 00:02:34,310 brought in his records his discharge 51 00:02:38,770 --> 00:02:37,280 forms all of his I can't remember what 52 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:38,780 those things are called when you see an 53 00:02:41,860 --> 00:02:40,489 Army Air Force officer the uniform has 54 00:02:46,089 --> 00:02:41,870 all those little ribbons and badges on 55 00:02:47,470 --> 00:02:46,099 it he brought that in and his ID and 56 00:02:50,380 --> 00:02:47,480 things like that from when he was in the 57 00:02:52,809 --> 00:02:50,390 Air Force he also told me he was in the 58 00:02:54,009 --> 00:02:52,819 FBI and told me which office he was that 59 00:02:55,509 --> 00:02:54,019 and for a while it was at the Los 60 00:02:57,309 --> 00:02:55,519 Angeles office and Wilshire Boulevard 61 00:02:59,680 --> 00:02:57,319 it's huge building I mean it's the 62 00:03:02,530 --> 00:02:59,690 Federal Building of Wilshire in Westwood 63 00:03:07,270 --> 00:03:02,540 and I had a friend that works at the 64 00:03:10,839 --> 00:03:07,280 Directors Guild of America and a writers 65 00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:10,849 guild I'm sorry and he soon after I met 66 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:13,870 Walter he had occasion to call up the 67 00:03:19,809 --> 00:03:17,630 FBI office in LA and his wife answered 68 00:03:21,940 --> 00:03:19,819 the phone Walter met his wife his former 69 00:03:24,819 --> 00:03:21,950 wife now and at the FBI and she still 70 00:03:27,009 --> 00:03:24,829 works there so she confirmed yes Walter 71 00:03:28,629 --> 00:03:27,019 did work here yes I am at the I'm with 72 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:28,639 the FBI office and they're under public 73 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:32,090 information officer now but before she 74 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:32,720 was an agent 75 00:03:37,780 --> 00:03:35,090 I believe along with Walter or somewhere 76 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:37,790 in the in the structure at the time he 77 00:03:43,659 --> 00:03:41,090 had specified so to my satisfaction he 78 00:03:46,659 --> 00:03:43,669 was he his credentials are what they say 79 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:46,669 he says they are okay so he's not 80 00:03:51,129 --> 00:03:49,250 obviously fabricating credentials just 81 00:03:53,650 --> 00:03:51,139 for Greg Bishop nor are the people at 82 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:53,660 the FBI fabricating the fact that he 83 00:03:58,659 --> 00:03:55,910 worked there no I mean I've known him 84 00:04:00,280 --> 00:03:58,669 for probably six or seven years he 85 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:00,290 didn't even care about being on the 86 00:04:05,290 --> 00:04:03,290 radio or or you know 87 00:04:06,940 --> 00:04:05,300 being a public figure or anything like 88 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:06,950 that for the longest time I mean he's 89 00:04:10,059 --> 00:04:08,450 kind of stumbled into it 90 00:04:12,070 --> 00:04:10,069 it's not like he's using fake 91 00:04:14,430 --> 00:04:12,080 credentials if people think he is to get 92 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:14,440 somewhere or make people think that he's 93 00:04:19,150 --> 00:04:16,970 something he says has more validity than 94 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:19,160 anybody else at least that's my 95 00:04:23,230 --> 00:04:20,930 impression I'm sure he'd concur with 96 00:04:25,450 --> 00:04:23,240 that I think the other issue people were 97 00:04:28,450 --> 00:04:25,460 questioning was his experiences he's had 98 00:04:30,930 --> 00:04:28,460 a lot of strange experiences and they 99 00:04:33,060 --> 00:04:30,940 ask questions now I have to say this 100 00:04:35,230 --> 00:04:33,070 Walter has been very gracious 101 00:04:36,670 --> 00:04:35,240 participating in the forum answering the 102 00:04:39,310 --> 00:04:36,680 question sometimes he gets a little 103 00:04:40,830 --> 00:04:39,320 testing yes he does well he's gonna you 104 00:04:42,790 --> 00:04:40,840 know there's a I think there's a 105 00:04:46,570 --> 00:04:42,800 difference of what people are looking 106 00:04:48,250 --> 00:04:46,580 for and I discussed this on my show last 107 00:04:50,409 --> 00:04:48,260 week I haven't I haven't posted it yes 108 00:04:53,230 --> 00:04:50,419 yet with Walter I actually said Walter 109 00:04:55,420 --> 00:04:53,240 will come on to answer his critics but 110 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:55,430 what it came down to is there are 111 00:04:59,290 --> 00:04:57,770 certain people who listen to these shows 112 00:05:01,480 --> 00:04:59,300 and particularly the parrot cast who 113 00:05:04,570 --> 00:05:01,490 have a higher standard of or a different 114 00:05:06,730 --> 00:05:04,580 standard I guess of quote-unquote proof 115 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:06,740 but the thing is that some people really 116 00:05:10,090 --> 00:05:08,450 need proof in a certain way and other 117 00:05:11,620 --> 00:05:10,100 people don't really care they're just 118 00:05:13,330 --> 00:05:11,630 more interested in the information and 119 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:13,340 they don't really take it horribly 120 00:05:18,129 --> 00:05:15,650 seriously and so we finally got into a 121 00:05:20,170 --> 00:05:18,139 discussion where we we said well some 122 00:05:24,190 --> 00:05:20,180 people that are quite skeptical but 123 00:05:26,140 --> 00:05:24,200 still interested you know no proof is 124 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:26,150 good enough and they're looking for an 125 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:28,910 answer and I don't think it's gonna come 126 00:05:32,860 --> 00:05:30,470 when Walter really doesn't either 127 00:05:34,990 --> 00:05:32,870 so we're content that I'm content to 128 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:35,000 listen to people's stories not take them 129 00:05:38,740 --> 00:05:36,530 too seriously and if there's something 130 00:05:41,170 --> 00:05:38,750 that seems to resonate with me or with 131 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:41,180 something that I've read before or seems 132 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:43,010 to lead somewhere I'll follow it if not 133 00:05:46,510 --> 00:05:44,930 I'll just forget it you know I don't 134 00:05:48,580 --> 00:05:46,520 care whether the person is making up 135 00:05:50,170 --> 00:05:48,590 stories or whatever if they're making 136 00:05:51,820 --> 00:05:50,180 something up fine then you know I've 137 00:05:53,589 --> 00:05:51,830 just wasted a couple hours listening to 138 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:53,599 somebody making something up but if I'm 139 00:05:57,730 --> 00:05:55,970 entertained that's fine too okay well 140 00:06:00,730 --> 00:05:57,740 the thing is - I think some people hope 141 00:06:02,950 --> 00:06:00,740 that we'll see the UFO visually will 142 00:06:05,650 --> 00:06:02,960 photograph it we'll take movies we'll 143 00:06:08,020 --> 00:06:05,660 have the radar tracking it will have the 144 00:06:09,909 --> 00:06:08,030 airplanes following it around we'll have 145 00:06:11,830 --> 00:06:09,919 a hundred percent confirmation or it 146 00:06:14,380 --> 00:06:11,840 will land and there will be a mass 147 00:06:15,090 --> 00:06:14,390 landing unfortunately the UFO field 148 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:15,100 doesn't work 149 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:16,930 that way the paranormal field doesn't 150 00:06:20,610 --> 00:06:19,120 work that way and when things happen 151 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:20,620 they're not predictable I mean you have 152 00:06:25,620 --> 00:06:23,050 people who run around say I can predict 153 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:25,630 that the UFO is gonna land in my 154 00:06:33,150 --> 00:06:30,010 backyard next Thursday very very rarely 155 00:06:35,070 --> 00:06:33,160 does that ever happen I don't know I'd 156 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:35,080 probably say never well I'm being 157 00:06:40,710 --> 00:06:38,170 charitable because I would say you know 158 00:06:43,230 --> 00:06:40,720 what happened once yeah well the thing 159 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:43,240 is that there's also somebody finally 160 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:44,770 asked them what I think on Walters 161 00:06:49,290 --> 00:06:46,930 thread what problem do you people have 162 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:49,300 with science why are you so against 163 00:06:54,750 --> 00:06:51,610 science why isn't it a good system for 164 00:06:56,670 --> 00:06:54,760 as a method of proof as you know look at 165 00:06:58,350 --> 00:06:56,680 where it's gotten it and I think the 166 00:07:00,780 --> 00:06:58,360 person whoever wrote that was missing 167 00:07:04,350 --> 00:07:00,790 the point at least for me from what I 168 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:04,360 was saying my point is that I'm I get 169 00:07:09,630 --> 00:07:06,970 very short with people who are 170 00:07:11,670 --> 00:07:09,640 interested in scientism which is a 171 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:11,680 belief in science rather than using the 172 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:15,070 scientific method whereby they don't 173 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:16,930 realize that science doesn't have the 174 00:07:22,050 --> 00:07:19,510 answer yet and if to some things and 175 00:07:24,450 --> 00:07:22,060 then if you know if it doesn't have the 176 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:24,460 answer yet it hasn't evolved to the 177 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:25,930 point where it can get the answers to 178 00:07:29,220 --> 00:07:27,370 some of these paranormal questions then 179 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:29,230 it doesn't exist and I don't agree with 180 00:07:32,910 --> 00:07:31,030 that and I think that's what the basic 181 00:07:35,550 --> 00:07:32,920 argument is is that I think that science 182 00:07:36,570 --> 00:07:35,560 is going to evolve and change and be 183 00:07:39,210 --> 00:07:36,580 able to look at some of these things 184 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:39,220 that we call UFOs and and the paranormal 185 00:07:43,470 --> 00:07:41,290 even though they're not repeatable on 186 00:07:45,770 --> 00:07:43,480 demand as a scientific method demands 187 00:07:47,940 --> 00:07:45,780 also if you're looking into things were 188 00:07:49,620 --> 00:07:47,950 individual people or small groups of 189 00:07:52,020 --> 00:07:49,630 people report something strange if 190 00:07:54,330 --> 00:07:52,030 there's a consistency of those reports 191 00:07:56,250 --> 00:07:54,340 even from people who weren't aware of 192 00:07:58,410 --> 00:07:56,260 the original report there's something to 193 00:07:59,900 --> 00:07:58,420 investigate now on this week's show 194 00:08:02,400 --> 00:07:59,910 we're going to talk about an 195 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:02,410 investigator no longer with us somebody 196 00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:04,690 who started with the UFO field in the 197 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:08,310 very early days and he basically 198 00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:11,260 introduced concepts that become part of 199 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:14,920 our popular culture such as the men in 200 00:08:20,660 --> 00:08:17,500 black MIB we're talking about gray 201 00:08:22,770 --> 00:08:20,670 Barker and we'll be talking to Bob 202 00:08:24,690 --> 00:08:22,780 Wilkinson he's director of the film 203 00:08:25,510 --> 00:08:24,700 called shades of gray a documentary 204 00:08:27,279 --> 00:08:25,520 about 205 00:08:29,529 --> 00:08:27,289 the life and times of great Barker I 206 00:08:31,990 --> 00:08:29,539 knew great Barker and we're also going 207 00:08:33,850 --> 00:08:32,000 to bring some of rays quotes friends on 208 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:33,860 such as Jim Mosely perhaps one of his 209 00:08:37,060 --> 00:08:35,330 closest friends in the world 210 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:37,070 he's going to join us the editor of 211 00:08:42,459 --> 00:08:40,130 saucer smear and also Allen Greenfield 212 00:08:44,740 --> 00:08:42,469 who wrote a foreword to one or more of 213 00:08:47,350 --> 00:08:44,750 greatest books one specifically I 214 00:08:50,110 --> 00:08:47,360 remember it's a Silver Bridge about the 215 00:08:57,910 --> 00:08:50,120 Mothman so we have that coming up next 216 00:08:59,290 --> 00:08:57,920 on high this is tomorrow from Namecheap 217 00:09:01,360 --> 00:08:59,300 where domain name and web hosting 218 00:09:03,370 --> 00:09:01,370 company and we really care about our 219 00:09:05,860 --> 00:09:03,380 customers with domain name purchases 220 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:05,870 names she offers free SSL and free who 221 00:09:09,550 --> 00:09:07,670 is guard for a year to protect your 222 00:09:11,319 --> 00:09:09,560 identity from spammers we won't bother 223 00:09:13,060 --> 00:09:11,329 you with unwanted messaging in your 224 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:13,070 inbox or upon checkout but most 225 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:14,930 importantly we care about you our 226 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:16,850 customers your satisfaction and 227 00:09:20,860 --> 00:09:19,010 happiness is our primary focus because 228 00:09:22,750 --> 00:09:20,870 your support means so much to us if 229 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:22,760 you'd like to learn more please visit us 230 00:09:27,550 --> 00:09:25,250 at radio name chief comm for web hosting 231 00:09:28,870 --> 00:09:27,560 and domain name specials you can also 232 00:09:34,389 --> 00:09:28,880 follow us on twitter at 233 00:09:36,490 --> 00:09:34,399 twitter.com/zeromd bars on facebook at 234 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:36,500 facebook.com slash Namecheap see you 235 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:41,930 online we want to hear from you if you 236 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:43,370 have a comment or question about the 237 00:09:50,139 --> 00:09:46,610 pair cast send it to news at the podcast 238 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:50,149 com that's news at the pear cast calm 239 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:52,310 and don't forget to visit our forums 240 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:53,570 where you can talk to fellow listeners 241 00:09:58,750 --> 00:09:56,510 just go to the pear cast comm and click 242 00:10:10,300 --> 00:09:58,760 on the forum links that's the forum 243 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:13,550 you're in the para gasp you never know 244 00:10:23,569 --> 00:10:21,710 Bob Wilkinson is director of a 245 00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:23,579 feature-length film called shades of 246 00:10:29,269 --> 00:10:26,880 grey what attracted you to the life of 247 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:29,279 grey marker well I run across them in a 248 00:10:35,509 --> 00:10:32,370 book here it was titled way out in West 249 00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:35,519 Virginia and I noticed you know he left 250 00:10:39,949 --> 00:10:38,220 behind this larger volume of work they 251 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:39,959 first up at the Clarksburg Harrison 252 00:10:43,850 --> 00:10:41,010 County Public Library 253 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:43,860 he sold some of his publications to them 254 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:47,010 when he was alive and made a drive up 255 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:48,720 it's in my backyard I'm West Virginia 256 00:10:53,269 --> 00:10:50,850 lives here and it's just the two-hour 257 00:10:54,769 --> 00:10:53,279 drive from me drove up and sorry reading 258 00:10:58,730 --> 00:10:54,779 through the papers and became interested 259 00:11:00,980 --> 00:10:58,740 in Barker and the USO but why make its 260 00:11:04,990 --> 00:11:00,990 own why make us film well fun Greg 261 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:05,000 Walker a very fascinating man I think 262 00:11:12,319 --> 00:11:09,110 with his body of work the the large 263 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:12,329 stories that he touched upon it was the 264 00:11:17,780 --> 00:11:16,170 moss man then in Bly and Blackson County 265 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:17,790 Monsters kind of got a hand in all those 266 00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:20,610 and that just kind of you know drew me 267 00:11:25,939 --> 00:11:23,100 to it and the more and more I've read 268 00:11:28,220 --> 00:11:25,949 about him the larger the story became 269 00:11:31,490 --> 00:11:28,230 and he's a multi-faceted story 270 00:11:33,170 --> 00:11:31,500 okay now why is grey Barker important to 271 00:11:36,439 --> 00:11:33,180 people who were following the UFO 272 00:11:39,079 --> 00:11:36,449 research field to me it's it's it really 273 00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:39,089 gives you an insight into that early 274 00:11:44,569 --> 00:11:40,920 into the beginning of the u.s. levels 275 00:11:48,019 --> 00:11:44,579 through his writings the people and I 276 00:11:50,990 --> 00:11:48,029 think with the caesarian I think you 277 00:11:53,870 --> 00:11:51,000 really get into the psychology of it and 278 00:11:56,180 --> 00:11:53,880 the early personalities in the field I 279 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:56,190 mean it's it's really a history lesson 280 00:12:00,560 --> 00:11:58,290 if you go back through this those are 281 00:12:02,380 --> 00:12:00,570 the writings that marker that in the 282 00:12:04,930 --> 00:12:02,390 publications that he has 283 00:12:07,449 --> 00:12:04,940 one of those early personalities that 284 00:12:09,550 --> 00:12:07,459 gray Barker got in touch with is another 285 00:12:13,930 --> 00:12:09,560 one of our guests Jim Mosely Jim how did 286 00:12:17,410 --> 00:12:13,940 you meet gray bar Kerr well in 1953 I 287 00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:17,420 was going around the country for several 288 00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:20,079 weeks in my car 289 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:22,550 preparing to write a book of flying 290 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:25,730 saucers and co-author it was a I mean 291 00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:28,970 I've met a professional writer though I 292 00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:31,790 had the time and money I started to go 293 00:12:38,980 --> 00:12:35,360 all around the country out to California 294 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:38,990 and the southern route and back to New 295 00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:43,490 Jersey in a more or less central and in 296 00:12:48,790 --> 00:12:45,680 the course of doing that and I had a 297 00:12:51,819 --> 00:12:48,800 list of the people that I wanted to 298 00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:51,829 interview people that written early 299 00:12:57,639 --> 00:12:54,160 books on the subject or had had a 300 00:12:59,519 --> 00:12:57,649 particular sightings or I just had made 301 00:13:08,530 --> 00:12:59,529 a public statement on the subject 302 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:08,540 anything like that and I think I was 303 00:13:14,980 --> 00:13:10,610 aware of the fact that he was one of the 304 00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:14,990 original investigators of the night 305 00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:18,160 Marshall and the other thing in 1952 306 00:13:28,449 --> 00:13:22,310 flatwoods you see what would you do 307 00:13:31,210 --> 00:13:28,459 without me to remember you a lot of your 308 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:31,220 notes over the years so I can fill in 309 00:13:44,319 --> 00:13:39,170 the blanks well anyway so at that time 310 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:44,329 he was quite young and not drinking as 311 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:49,650 much as he was later and idealistic and 312 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:51,490 [Music] 313 00:14:03,340 --> 00:13:58,780 I'm positive that he did not believe in 314 00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:03,350 any of this since we got along and I 315 00:14:07,810 --> 00:14:05,510 continue to keep in touch with him after 316 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:07,820 I made this trip I was back in New 317 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:10,850 Jersey he lived inside for West Virginia 318 00:14:19,389 --> 00:14:15,050 it's at that time of driving about ten 319 00:14:22,269 --> 00:14:19,399 hours or so between the few places okay 320 00:14:25,689 --> 00:14:22,279 now the one thing you just said he was 321 00:14:27,939 --> 00:14:25,699 very idealistic early on obviously 322 00:14:37,379 --> 00:14:27,949 believed in this stuff later on he 323 00:14:52,740 --> 00:14:37,389 disbelieve some or all of it earlier 324 00:14:57,639 --> 00:14:52,750 because he apparently believed the was 325 00:15:00,220 --> 00:14:57,649 the first widely known magazine there 326 00:15:05,410 --> 00:15:00,230 may have been one or two before that but 327 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:05,420 his started in 1952 and the closed down 328 00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:10,010 in 1953 after only four or five issues 329 00:15:26,350 --> 00:15:20,630 the reason being the whole black turn 330 00:15:28,449 --> 00:15:26,360 began and I believe that after the 331 00:15:31,780 --> 00:15:28,459 giving the Barker thought that was true 332 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:31,790 even though it was rather absurd because 333 00:15:37,060 --> 00:15:34,130 there was no reason to think that bender 334 00:15:39,970 --> 00:15:37,070 had stumbled on from true said nobody 335 00:15:41,410 --> 00:15:39,980 else had stumbled on and if he had it 336 00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:41,420 certainly did not appear in his 337 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:43,160 newsletter because it was a quite 338 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:46,610 ordinary newsletter with a little bit of 339 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:49,910 theory and a few sightings and nothing 340 00:15:55,809 --> 00:15:53,690 that would be anything year important 341 00:15:59,500 --> 00:15:55,819 enough to have the government or the 342 00:16:00,970 --> 00:15:59,510 space people or whoever telling silenced 343 00:16:04,930 --> 00:16:00,980 him so when I was 344 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:04,940 were impressed with a Billy I met bender 345 00:16:10,210 --> 00:16:07,010 a couple of times in the course of 346 00:16:12,100 --> 00:16:10,220 trying to investigate the subject there 347 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:12,110 remember thing that is happened to him 348 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:15,170 and I am magic great bargain met him a 349 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:18,290 couple of times also getting back to 350 00:16:22,990 --> 00:16:19,970 what I'm trying to say I think that 351 00:16:25,810 --> 00:16:23,000 beginning Walker really did think 352 00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:25,820 something like checker and truth that 353 00:16:31,139 --> 00:16:28,880 happened to Albert a bender and I think 354 00:16:35,490 --> 00:16:31,149 over a period of time he realized how 355 00:16:39,490 --> 00:16:35,500 absurd that really was and lost faith in 356 00:16:42,129 --> 00:16:39,500 bender and in doing so lost faith in the 357 00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:42,139 subjects and after that he was only an 358 00:16:49,569 --> 00:16:45,199 entertainer like Here I am as you can 359 00:16:51,610 --> 00:16:49,579 see am i entertaining I hope now the 360 00:16:54,340 --> 00:16:51,620 thing that was kind of unusual about 361 00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:54,350 bender is that later on he came out with 362 00:16:59,050 --> 00:16:56,480 a book which I presume gray Barker wrote 363 00:17:00,670 --> 00:16:59,060 all or most stuff called flying saucers 364 00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:00,680 in the three men it turned out he was a 365 00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:04,640 contactee so what's that all about that 366 00:17:35,770 --> 00:17:06,760 he make all that up that he imagined 367 00:17:35,780 --> 00:17:42,450 [Music] 368 00:17:47,060 --> 00:17:45,130 believe it had to do with the space 369 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:47,070 people 370 00:18:00,410 --> 00:17:56,750 we were coming here mostly to the Arctic 371 00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:00,420 regions and mining for these things 372 00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:04,880 there's a library remember about and I 373 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:07,860 thought that was absurd and I'm sure by 374 00:18:14,090 --> 00:18:09,690 that time because at this level years 375 00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:14,100 after the original pressure fury I'm 376 00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:16,110 sure we're trying very Barker thought it 377 00:18:24,980 --> 00:18:20,460 was absurd oh can I tell you I'm Matt 378 00:18:28,370 --> 00:18:24,990 bender a few times he watches for my UFO 379 00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:28,380 discussion group in New York City once 380 00:18:36,260 --> 00:18:32,760 and he stayed in Bridgeport Connecticut 381 00:18:39,530 --> 00:18:36,270 where he lived for a while quite a while 382 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:39,540 and then he moved out to California and 383 00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:42,450 by that time he would not speak to 384 00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:48,960 anybody on the subject so when he 385 00:18:53,180 --> 00:18:51,150 originally had its little UFO 386 00:18:55,010 --> 00:18:53,190 organization and lots of people did that 387 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:55,020 you have an organization we lose 388 00:19:11,470 --> 00:18:57,210 interest you do something else you think 389 00:19:55,940 --> 00:19:18,040 [Music] 390 00:19:58,340 --> 00:19:55,950 people to about bender and I was gonna 391 00:20:00,560 --> 00:19:58,350 get some interviews with them and they 392 00:20:01,820 --> 00:20:00,570 actually they agreed to the interviews 393 00:20:04,610 --> 00:20:01,830 and then they turned it down 394 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:04,620 and but there's some speculation that he 395 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:06,570 had gotten involved with skull and bone 396 00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:10,010 and some of those types of organizations 397 00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:13,230 for their the other display like yet I 398 00:20:18,140 --> 00:20:15,510 think he may even had a shrine in his 399 00:20:19,490 --> 00:20:18,150 house and there's some speculation that 400 00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:19,500 that could be tied into but I could 401 00:20:24,110 --> 00:20:21,960 never interview anyone enough to really 402 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:24,120 get down to the to the bottom of that 403 00:20:29,450 --> 00:20:27,570 will kind of get that who did you say 404 00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:29,460 possibly had a shrine in his house was 405 00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:32,880 that bender or job tender al bender yeah 406 00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:36,150 oh well I'll better at a had a room in 407 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:39,150 his house I'm sure that one of the 408 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:41,130 guests probably saw that had a bunch of 409 00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:43,710 poor stuff he said stuck on the walls 410 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:44,700 and there's pictures over there 411 00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:47,130 skeletons and masks and things like that 412 00:20:55,670 --> 00:20:52,230 I was always a part of my brother and I 413 00:20:59,030 --> 00:20:55,680 saw those things and I believe that all 414 00:21:02,000 --> 00:20:59,040 the lovers honesty robbers who was a 415 00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:02,010 well-known figure at that time and they 416 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:04,080 friends of great Parkers are made 417 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:07,170 investigator of a bender case I think he 418 00:21:11,780 --> 00:21:09,090 was in the house and some pictures over 419 00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:11,790 the wall for all the stuff I and I 420 00:21:17,210 --> 00:21:14,400 believe he tended to suppress the 421 00:21:19,490 --> 00:21:17,220 pictures because he never had made been 422 00:21:21,170 --> 00:21:19,500 there looks like a nut and he didn't 423 00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:21,180 want to believe the story because 424 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:22,860 obviously we're always can't believe 425 00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:25,410 everything Bob what was your feeling in 426 00:21:29,870 --> 00:21:27,630 researching the life of gray bark did 427 00:21:32,930 --> 00:21:29,880 you see the evidence of this growing 428 00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:32,940 disenchantment with UFO field UFO 429 00:21:36,830 --> 00:21:34,950 reality that's tough yeah you can see 430 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:36,840 him in the letter that he corresponded 431 00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:39,570 with his followers and speaking with 432 00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:41,070 Jerome Clark he says that you know 433 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:43,200 Barker tended to the fringe of this deal 434 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:45,450 and and they kind of that was his 435 00:21:50,980 --> 00:21:48,330 following and I was his specialty and as 436 00:21:53,529 --> 00:21:50,990 he get some outlandish stories and and 437 00:21:56,590 --> 00:21:53,539 really close you know pretty much 438 00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:56,600 thought foster did he put out and you 439 00:22:01,389 --> 00:21:59,120 can see the correspondence of the fans 440 00:22:03,580 --> 00:22:01,399 they would write back and forth and he 441 00:22:06,639 --> 00:22:03,590 would call it's in that wing of the 442 00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:06,649 field and and talk about peddling his 443 00:22:11,019 --> 00:22:08,809 books and things like that to them you 444 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:11,029 know pretty much you know they would buy 445 00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:13,130 anything but if you kind of saw this 446 00:22:18,490 --> 00:22:15,470 entertainer coming out in them as it 447 00:22:22,690 --> 00:22:18,500 when you see the evidence Bob of any 448 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:22,700 serious interest at all remnant in what 449 00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:24,770 gray Barker did after that initial 450 00:22:28,990 --> 00:22:27,260 disenchantment you know I kind of if you 451 00:22:30,730 --> 00:22:29,000 read Barker's books and things you can 452 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:30,740 kind of see the tongue-in-cheek writing 453 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:32,570 spell that he's God and his publications 454 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:35,330 and his books and I would like to think 455 00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:38,570 that if you spend 30 years in a field I 456 00:22:43,299 --> 00:22:39,710 think it was I want to say this very 457 00:22:46,210 --> 00:22:43,309 years 1950 to 1984 so it's 34 years that 458 00:22:48,970 --> 00:22:46,220 you have some interest in the subject 459 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:48,980 obviously and so I would like to think 460 00:22:53,019 --> 00:22:50,690 that somewhere deep down there was some 461 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:53,029 kind of belief but you know I didn't 462 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:55,490 wanna cross thing that said you know I 463 00:23:00,730 --> 00:22:57,850 truly believe in it in the end well any 464 00:23:05,159 --> 00:23:00,740 never see just to say this I think it's 465 00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:13,470 very well and the chamber he wanted to a 466 00:23:23,919 --> 00:23:20,049 sense of wonderment in people's child 467 00:23:27,630 --> 00:23:23,929 and as a young man he just like bender 468 00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:27,640 have been interested in horror movie 469 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:32,960 acting out skits that wore shoes back I 470 00:23:39,010 --> 00:23:34,970 hadn't thought of it before but in a way 471 00:23:41,470 --> 00:23:39,020 very much like our K bender so he 472 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:41,480 dedicated his life to entertaining 473 00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:43,730 people and making their living from 474 00:23:49,090 --> 00:23:44,960 doing so 475 00:23:51,820 --> 00:23:49,100 and I was his motivation it's not very 476 00:23:54,730 --> 00:23:51,830 what we would want it to be but he 477 00:23:57,820 --> 00:23:54,740 definitely was they saying that he 478 00:24:00,129 --> 00:23:57,830 thought he was doing quite well hey Bob 479 00:24:01,899 --> 00:24:00,139 the part of the film that interested me 480 00:24:03,310 --> 00:24:01,909 I was the journalist that was 481 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:03,320 corresponding with Barker who basically 482 00:24:09,460 --> 00:24:07,090 as he said else helped great tell lies 483 00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:09,470 and it turns out I guess he's part of 484 00:24:14,740 --> 00:24:11,360 the skeptical community now at least he 485 00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:14,750 was yeah you're John Sherwood Sherwood 486 00:24:17,139 --> 00:24:15,529 that's right 487 00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:17,149 I've had some correspondence with him 488 00:24:22,419 --> 00:24:20,480 yeah he's an interesting guy he started 489 00:24:25,180 --> 00:24:22,429 corresponding with marker of the kid a 490 00:24:28,210 --> 00:24:25,190 teenager he hadn't written some stories 491 00:24:31,090 --> 00:24:28,220 for Barker and you know Barker says yeah 492 00:24:34,330 --> 00:24:31,100 either great but let's just jazz it up a 493 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:34,340 bit and he had him change his name and I 494 00:24:38,590 --> 00:24:36,529 think Sherwood was kind of hesitant to 495 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:38,600 put his name on something that was going 496 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:41,450 to be passed as you know as journalism 497 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:44,090 even though it was a sci-fi story that 498 00:24:49,570 --> 00:24:47,210 he's written for Barker and so they came 499 00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:49,580 up with the name dr. Richard Pratt and 500 00:24:55,570 --> 00:24:52,880 it appears in a lot of the early 501 00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:55,580 caesarian publications you'll see that 502 00:24:58,930 --> 00:24:57,679 correspondent and I can't remember they 503 00:25:01,200 --> 00:24:58,940 gave him a job title but I can't 504 00:25:04,090 --> 00:25:01,210 remember exactly what the title was 505 00:25:06,730 --> 00:25:04,100 scientific adviser or something yeah it 506 00:25:08,350 --> 00:25:06,740 was something like that and so and they 507 00:25:11,970 --> 00:25:08,360 made him a doctor to make it sound more 508 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:11,980 more legit yeah just Lansky yeah 509 00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:20,310 [Music] 510 00:25:24,910 --> 00:25:22,640 picture this you're on the phone with a 511 00:25:28,090 --> 00:25:24,920 client or colleague trying to explain 512 00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:28,100 something visual a PowerPoint a keynote 513 00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:30,320 presentation a website but it's 514 00:25:33,970 --> 00:25:32,990 frustrating because they can't see what 515 00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:33,980 you're talking about 516 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:36,710 the solution good news they can if you 517 00:25:42,370 --> 00:25:39,530 invite them to an online meeting using 518 00:25:44,530 --> 00:25:42,380 GoToMeeting then they can see your 519 00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:44,540 computer desktop on their computer 520 00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:46,880 screen so you can show them what you're 521 00:25:49,450 --> 00:25:47,840 talking about 522 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:49,460 by use goto meeting all the time to 523 00:25:53,770 --> 00:25:51,170 collaborate with colleagues and with 524 00:25:57,190 --> 00:25:53,780 clients you can try goto meeting free 525 00:26:00,340 --> 00:25:57,200 for 30 days but you must visit goto 526 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:00,350 meeting slashed podcasts let's go to 527 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:04,010 meeting.com slash podcasts for free 528 00:26:15,630 --> 00:26:12,850 this is a bear guest you never know 529 00:26:19,050 --> 00:26:15,640 what's gonna happen next 530 00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:21,450 we have Greg Bishop as our co-hosts 531 00:26:27,630 --> 00:26:23,350 we're talking about the life and times 532 00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:27,640 of great Barker who was either a very 533 00:26:31,260 --> 00:26:29,350 well-known UFO researcher or an 534 00:26:33,090 --> 00:26:31,270 entertainer or both we have Bob 535 00:26:34,770 --> 00:26:33,100 Wilkinson he was director of a 536 00:26:37,710 --> 00:26:34,780 feature-length film about gray called 537 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:37,720 shades of gray and also we're featuring 538 00:26:43,260 --> 00:26:40,810 on this show Allan Greenfield and Jim 539 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:43,270 Mosely Allen you had some observations 540 00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:46,210 to make well first of all I have a very 541 00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:49,390 very different take on this and I want 542 00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:51,310 to make it clear that going in terms of 543 00:26:56,930 --> 00:26:53,710 personal relationship while I have a 544 00:26:59,250 --> 00:26:56,940 long and rather extensive personal 545 00:27:02,400 --> 00:26:59,260 relationship with gray Barker I 546 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:02,410 certainly can't claim that that I have 547 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:06,690 the same personal interaction over 548 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:11,050 decades that Jim Mosley has I think in a 549 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:13,690 sense and I realized this very early on 550 00:27:18,810 --> 00:27:16,450 and I'll tell you exactly when that 551 00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:18,820 maybe Jim was a little bit too close to 552 00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:22,240 gray to get kind of an objective view of 553 00:27:28,620 --> 00:27:25,150 what gray was all about first of all I 554 00:27:33,650 --> 00:27:28,630 don't consider there to be a sharp line 555 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:33,660 between that which is real and which is 556 00:27:39,780 --> 00:27:36,490 fictional and I don't think he did 557 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:39,790 either he was part folklores for part I 558 00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:44,650 entertainer and park looking for the 559 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:47,200 strange in the universe walking on the 560 00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:50,730 wild side and many different senses and 561 00:27:57,270 --> 00:27:54,670 the UFO and monster lore which is 562 00:28:01,650 --> 00:27:57,280 particularly rich in Appalachia which 563 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:01,660 was his home turf well I think he shares 564 00:28:08,130 --> 00:28:04,210 in some of all of that I also think that 565 00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:08,140 the entire UFO mystery has a way of 566 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:11,310 blinking and blinking out for example 567 00:28:17,010 --> 00:28:14,650 one of the things that has occurred to 568 00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:17,020 me long ago and I certainly have 569 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:18,880 mentioned it on your program and my 570 00:28:24,990 --> 00:28:22,570 books and in various places is from the 571 00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:25,000 standpoint of a ceremonial magician the 572 00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:26,720 the 573 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:32,480 decorated and it taken her background in 574 00:28:36,490 --> 00:28:34,490 science fiction and so forth not 575 00:28:39,940 --> 00:28:36,500 militate against this snoring to the 576 00:28:45,130 --> 00:28:39,950 contrary if you open the door something 577 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:45,140 comes in we great probably was closest 578 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:47,210 to the truth when I really confronted 579 00:28:53,529 --> 00:28:50,450 him with what he believed and actually 580 00:28:55,779 --> 00:28:53,539 this was in Atlanta the first of the 581 00:28:59,549 --> 00:28:55,789 national UFO conferences to be held in 582 00:29:02,680 --> 00:28:59,559 an environment which words by 1972-73 583 00:29:03,220 --> 00:29:02,690 lost in the mists of history we went out 584 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:03,230 to dinner 585 00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:07,130 jim was there actually and all with some 586 00:29:12,490 --> 00:29:09,679 of the local luminaries and gray and I 587 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:12,500 asked gray what he really believed 588 00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:15,890 because he I think I may be getting two 589 00:29:20,020 --> 00:29:17,840 different occasions mixed up but he had 590 00:29:22,390 --> 00:29:20,030 showed me the Lost Creek film and I 591 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:22,400 spotted I saw the fishing line 592 00:29:29,140 --> 00:29:24,770 essentially and when it is out to them 593 00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:29,150 and it just tried to show us he was like 594 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:31,520 Jim not above focusing but I think he 595 00:29:38,289 --> 00:29:34,970 also had more beliefs and we gen is 596 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:38,299 going to credit and those who know him 597 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:41,090 through through secondary contact I 598 00:29:44,830 --> 00:29:43,370 think he pretty much told whoever he was 599 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:44,840 speaking to what they wanted to hear 600 00:29:49,419 --> 00:29:46,610 this was a public occasion so there were 601 00:29:52,029 --> 00:29:49,429 lots of people who had told one thing to 602 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:52,039 matsuri what there's also a social 603 00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:54,650 occasion rather than an on-stage 604 00:30:01,659 --> 00:29:58,250 occasion there was some liquid 605 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:01,669 nourishment there going around and it 606 00:30:07,570 --> 00:30:05,450 was convivial and he said I think I know 607 00:30:10,690 --> 00:30:07,580 what you're doing great I said on the 608 00:30:14,289 --> 00:30:10,700 surface you believe it all everything 609 00:30:17,049 --> 00:30:14,299 you put in back then you put ten Beckley 610 00:30:20,919 --> 00:30:17,059 to shame in terms of all the stuff you 611 00:30:23,049 --> 00:30:20,929 you're willing to countenance and he got 612 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:23,059 a blank look on his face you know well 613 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:25,610 I'm good and I got closer to him and I 614 00:30:31,690 --> 00:30:28,490 said that under Donna you're saying to 615 00:30:35,710 --> 00:30:31,700 yourself all this is hooey 616 00:30:39,730 --> 00:30:35,720 I knew it I'm just an entertainer oh you 617 00:30:40,460 --> 00:30:39,740 got this sort of enigmatika flickering 618 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:40,470 in his eye 619 00:30:46,669 --> 00:30:44,490 a lot of people he told that to people 620 00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:46,679 that he was close to and trusted not to 621 00:30:55,270 --> 00:30:50,340 spoil the game and I said but under that 622 00:30:58,450 --> 00:30:55,280 it's gray who comes out of the pond evil 623 00:31:01,730 --> 00:30:58,460 Appalachian folkloric tradition where 624 00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:01,740 fact and fiction are intermixed in such 625 00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:04,049 a way that it's impossible to separate 626 00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:06,510 one outcome the other and I think it 627 00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:09,240 closer to the truth to say you believe 628 00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:12,809 it all and he just smiled it was not a 629 00:31:19,399 --> 00:31:16,320 smile of sarcasm or 630 00:31:21,740 --> 00:31:19,409 cynicism or her smile of recognition I 631 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:21,750 can't say that for sure but that's what 632 00:31:27,020 --> 00:31:23,970 I honestly think is true you know with 633 00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:27,030 Jen when they were you know hanging out 634 00:31:34,940 --> 00:31:30,809 together and has Jim details and his two 635 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:34,950 little red book and I would urge people 636 00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:38,130 to dust off a copy it was shockingly 637 00:31:46,220 --> 00:31:41,190 close to the troops I remember which it 638 00:31:48,620 --> 00:31:46,230 is well name the book which is that 639 00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:48,630 Achilles law is anything from Prometheus 640 00:31:53,510 --> 00:31:51,600 press ufologists are afraid to touch and 641 00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,520 that's like religious people are afraid 642 00:31:58,730 --> 00:31:55,679 to touch the tanks of course I don't 643 00:32:00,350 --> 00:31:58,740 have any belief in UFOs I simply think 644 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:00,360 the preponderance of the evidence is 645 00:32:04,370 --> 00:32:02,610 there's something to this I mean grace 646 00:32:06,260 --> 00:32:04,380 not that too but he also knew there was 647 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:06,270 a lot that was hokey and in the lock I 648 00:32:11,090 --> 00:32:09,090 was very very entertaining a grave 649 00:32:13,460 --> 00:32:11,100 marker the double entendre from the 650 00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:13,470 title of the movie which I haven't seen 651 00:32:18,590 --> 00:32:15,600 by the way I would love to have a DVD I 652 00:32:21,770 --> 00:32:18,600 love and then he lived in shades of grey 653 00:32:23,690 --> 00:32:21,780 and not in black and white Jim seems to 654 00:32:26,270 --> 00:32:23,700 paint him in black and white I had two 655 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:26,280 occasions to reevaluate Grayson teeny 656 00:32:31,369 --> 00:32:27,970 and passed away 657 00:32:33,810 --> 00:32:31,379 and one was in preparing for the 658 00:32:38,399 --> 00:32:33,820 national UFO conference in second time 659 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:38,409 Atlanta in 1994 I believe it was and Jim 660 00:32:45,539 --> 00:32:41,610 was to receive our first perhaps or only 661 00:32:49,049 --> 00:32:45,549 an hour banquet the first great Barker 662 00:32:52,710 --> 00:32:49,059 lifetime achievement Memorial Award and 663 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:52,720 of course I did some research on on gray 664 00:32:58,759 --> 00:32:55,570 at that time looking back over not so 665 00:33:03,299 --> 00:32:58,769 much our personal relationship which was 666 00:33:07,769 --> 00:33:03,309 25 years but then but over his written 667 00:33:10,049 --> 00:33:07,779 works his pseudonymous little works some 668 00:33:12,990 --> 00:33:10,059 of the works not designed to be seen by 669 00:33:15,299 --> 00:33:13,000 others like UFOs 69 you know that one 670 00:33:18,539 --> 00:33:15,309 gene you introduced me to it other 671 00:33:20,159 --> 00:33:18,549 things that he did that are outrageously 672 00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:20,169 good since the tumor was a 673 00:33:26,999 --> 00:33:24,190 fair-to-middling poet yes he knew 674 00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:27,009 science fiction very well had gone to 675 00:33:31,950 --> 00:33:29,110 one of the world comes and days when 676 00:33:33,869 --> 00:33:31,960 that wasn't a hip thing to do for you 677 00:33:36,330 --> 00:33:33,879 know the vast majority of people that 678 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:36,340 sort of died you know that once I can 679 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:36,970 relate to that 680 00:33:40,769 --> 00:33:38,490 that doesn't mean to Orin doesn't 681 00:33:44,639 --> 00:33:40,779 science fiction doesn't mean one doesn't 682 00:33:46,169 --> 00:33:44,649 have a sense of science or discovery in 683 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:46,179 science fiction in many ways to 684 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:49,090 anticipate things the best comparison 685 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:51,970 that I can make i'm skipping one other 686 00:33:58,769 --> 00:33:54,610 thing i had occasion about two years ago 687 00:34:01,740 --> 00:33:58,779 to review the whole career of grey 688 00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:01,750 Parker once again and sort of outside of 689 00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:03,460 the fact Ajay mostly and I are friends 690 00:34:07,980 --> 00:34:05,289 and have talked about gray a lot and 691 00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:07,990 grey was my friend but to review it 692 00:34:14,250 --> 00:34:11,440 because I had been asked by the person 693 00:34:17,010 --> 00:34:14,260 republishing the Silver Bridge which i 694 00:34:19,619 --> 00:34:17,020 think is a far far underestimated book 695 00:34:21,540 --> 00:34:19,629 and which I at the time that was the 696 00:34:23,430 --> 00:34:21,550 point at which I realized that Jim 697 00:34:26,460 --> 00:34:23,440 wasn't getting worked great with doing 698 00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:26,470 and I thought that I was and I told very 699 00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:28,510 well I thought of it and he said you've 700 00:34:32,010 --> 00:34:30,520 got it I want you to do that you know 701 00:34:34,020 --> 00:34:32,020 introduction and I want you to do the 702 00:34:37,140 --> 00:34:34,030 editing on I did a terrible introduction 703 00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:37,150 was a kid then and my writing style had 704 00:34:40,740 --> 00:34:38,950 not gotten perfected so here was another 705 00:34:43,230 --> 00:34:40,750 chance with the different publisher to 706 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:43,240 write a new introduction and I did it 707 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:46,690 gets much closer to what I really think 708 00:34:50,490 --> 00:34:48,970 about grey Parker and what I think he 709 00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:50,500 was trying to convey in the Silver 710 00:34:56,220 --> 00:34:52,480 Bridge which is a lot quest and he 711 00:34:58,770 --> 00:34:56,230 really was then let's say then do 712 00:35:02,610 --> 00:34:58,780 commercial flying saucers which Intermec 713 00:35:04,620 --> 00:35:02,620 in a mixes fantasy and reality very 714 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:04,630 freely and I think you're not the 715 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:06,490 distasteful way wasn't a scientific book 716 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:08,050 wasn't designed to be certainly the 717 00:35:13,370 --> 00:35:11,290 Silver Bridge one and again and when I 718 00:35:15,690 --> 00:35:13,380 was asked to write an introduction to 719 00:35:17,850 --> 00:35:15,700 what I understand will be out before the 720 00:35:20,690 --> 00:35:17,860 end of this year and it's a first-time 721 00:35:24,450 --> 00:35:20,700 introduction to the republication of 722 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:24,460 what is more or less the last last thing 723 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:27,850 grey had published in his lifetime there 724 00:35:32,010 --> 00:35:29,770 was one will look I think that was 725 00:35:37,110 --> 00:35:32,020 published either posthumously or while 726 00:35:40,050 --> 00:35:37,120 he was busy dying well it was it's 727 00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:40,060 called embody the terror among us and I 728 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:42,160 had the honor of being asked my 729 00:35:48,540 --> 00:35:45,130 introduction to that and I labeled it 730 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:48,550 not alone the the ultimate place modern 731 00:35:58,770 --> 00:35:53,130 novel is it a novel is it a docudrama 732 00:36:01,110 --> 00:35:58,780 yeah and I was compare that perspective 733 00:36:04,650 --> 00:36:01,120 the perspective that I have and I think 734 00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:04,660 even more so the perspective that gray 735 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:07,750 hats and it works which notice I think 736 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:09,850 in present tense where the works were 737 00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:13,210 wrong just something that my eldest son 738 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:15,280 Alex knows great guilt I like that it 739 00:36:23,170 --> 00:36:19,090 was the writer for some of the World 740 00:36:27,430 --> 00:36:23,180 Wrestling Entertainment for couple years 741 00:36:29,860 --> 00:36:27,440 of course everybody assumed that that 742 00:36:33,150 --> 00:36:29,870 professional wrestling if not only these 743 00:36:39,070 --> 00:36:33,160 days especially if not only flamboyantly 744 00:36:41,410 --> 00:36:39,080 hoaxed but it is more outrageous as the 745 00:36:46,450 --> 00:36:41,420 years go by in order to continue to get 746 00:36:50,170 --> 00:36:46,460 the enormous audience but it yeah but I 747 00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:50,180 got a new perspective from feeling you 748 00:36:55,330 --> 00:36:52,520 know with someone directly inside that 749 00:36:58,060 --> 00:36:55,340 and I realized under the trying to the 750 00:37:01,120 --> 00:36:58,070 story of how things are reversed in this 751 00:37:05,770 --> 00:37:01,130 and that you know there is a as a deeper 752 00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:05,780 story of the strength and tragedy of the 753 00:37:10,810 --> 00:37:09,140 men who will do all kinds of things and 754 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:10,820 all this does not come from any one 755 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:14,690 source I have my own sources and bad 756 00:37:21,790 --> 00:37:17,570 internet these are our great Heffley 757 00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:21,800 these are great huge bulky men that can 758 00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:25,520 do some of the stunts that that are best 759 00:37:33,580 --> 00:37:30,310 known from Cirque de Soleil type people 760 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:33,590 you know much more built for that sort 761 00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:33,890 of thing 762 00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:35,870 let's go past the wrestling but we get 763 00:37:43,890 --> 00:37:38,240 kind of the picture here before we go on 764 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:43,900 Jim let's summarize there is a reality 765 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:52,250 underlying that which is perfectly now 766 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:53,930 I'm finish and then you can say Allen 767 00:37:58,390 --> 00:37:55,450 please finish 768 00:38:03,760 --> 00:37:58,400 give me 30 more seconds I'll be done and 769 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:03,770 I'll be quiet just as with the wrestling 770 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:07,370 which is staged there is also a great 771 00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:11,510 deal host of athletic effort art and 772 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:14,630 reality got level reality which has cost 773 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:17,330 some people their lives quite a few 774 00:38:23,050 --> 00:38:19,490 actually in recent years there is a 775 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:23,060 reality underlying if you're inside of 776 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:27,050 being something the UFO mystery which I 777 00:38:30,910 --> 00:38:30,290 think those see it up close they know 778 00:38:34,059 --> 00:38:30,920 that the 779 00:38:37,089 --> 00:38:34,069 they also know the reality of with the 780 00:38:39,039 --> 00:38:37,099 great bunker project said I cannot quote 781 00:38:41,799 --> 00:38:39,049 one paragraph and I'll be very very 782 00:38:45,130 --> 00:38:41,809 quiet until you call it to me again one 783 00:38:48,010 --> 00:38:45,140 paragraph one paragraph the ultimate 784 00:38:51,490 --> 00:38:48,020 postmodern novel grave markers work is 785 00:38:53,950 --> 00:38:51,500 an act of literary self creation if the 786 00:38:57,819 --> 00:38:53,960 postmodern novel troubled the notion of 787 00:39:00,280 --> 00:38:57,829 authorship of intertextual relations and 788 00:39:02,770 --> 00:39:00,290 of the margins between text and content 789 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:02,780 then the grave marker archive is the 790 00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:05,690 most extensive successful an operating 791 00:39:12,250 --> 00:39:08,720 postmodern novel ever written individual 792 00:39:15,970 --> 00:39:12,260 tech texts so all in the archive present 793 00:39:18,460 --> 00:39:15,980 complex interplay of truth interpolation 794 00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:18,470 and intention at the same time the 795 00:39:23,380 --> 00:39:20,960 archives insertion into public memory 796 00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:23,390 and the space of because of the seismic 797 00:39:29,380 --> 00:39:26,240 disturbance and the very concept of the 798 00:39:32,410 --> 00:39:29,390 archive by definition new phones are a 799 00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:32,420 question of evidence we see evidence of 800 00:39:37,210 --> 00:39:34,609 their existence but also find that all 801 00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:37,220 evidence produced poses question from 802 00:39:42,789 --> 00:39:40,250 the nature of evidence itself the great 803 00:39:44,890 --> 00:39:42,799 Barker Archive presents no end of 804 00:39:47,980 --> 00:39:44,900 evidence presented the offer has 805 00:39:56,410 --> 00:39:47,990 trickster and presents tax as their self 806 00:39:59,470 --> 00:39:56,420 reflection and pastiche Jim mostly ok 807 00:40:01,630 --> 00:39:59,480 what is your opinion about his as they 808 00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:01,640 say different point of view about gray 809 00:40:08,530 --> 00:40:05,359 Parker well he says that I was too close 810 00:40:10,390 --> 00:40:08,540 to great to be objective and judging him 811 00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:10,400 I do give him say that and I think he's 812 00:40:15,789 --> 00:40:13,040 probably quite right about I was a very 813 00:40:19,089 --> 00:40:15,799 you know I feel so low and I find him 814 00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:19,099 hard to disagree with because very often 815 00:40:24,549 --> 00:40:21,710 I don't even understand what he's saying 816 00:40:26,859 --> 00:40:24,559 even when I can hear what he say so I 817 00:40:29,530 --> 00:40:26,869 can't comment very much I don't what he 818 00:40:32,380 --> 00:40:29,540 just finished saying but I'm glad he 819 00:40:35,950 --> 00:40:32,390 said it well I also think Jim is part of 820 00:40:38,309 --> 00:40:35,960 the mythos as well so I mean I was 821 00:40:42,370 --> 00:40:38,319 shaped by Jim mostly and gray Barker 822 00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:42,380 what I am is a product of that for 823 00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:49,700 better or worse here it is no I'm pretty 824 00:40:57,099 --> 00:40:53,510 skinny and buff but that's ok I think I 825 00:40:59,890 --> 00:40:57,109 was too same as you shaped shaped 826 00:41:02,740 --> 00:40:59,900 partially by gray Barker in Jim Mosely 827 00:41:04,450 --> 00:41:02,750 and thankful for it the one thing I 828 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:04,460 remember from your introduction to 829 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:06,290 silver bridge the new edition that came 830 00:41:12,819 --> 00:41:10,250 out was probably from the same meeting 831 00:41:15,370 --> 00:41:12,829 you had with Barker or the party or the 832 00:41:18,250 --> 00:41:15,380 bar party or whatever it was 833 00:41:19,930 --> 00:41:18,260 and my favorite quote was well somebody 834 00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:19,940 said grey believes in everything and 835 00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:21,710 gray kind of smiled and said I believe 836 00:41:26,740 --> 00:41:23,569 in everything and I believe in nothing I 837 00:41:36,579 --> 00:41:26,750 love that quote question well I'd like 838 00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:36,589 to comment on he was quoting he was a 839 00:41:43,839 --> 00:41:40,910 very strange fellow but perhaps on his 840 00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:43,849 grave should be written those words that 841 00:41:49,660 --> 00:41:46,250 he used very frequently and he meant 842 00:41:51,940 --> 00:41:49,670 them and he often said I believe in 843 00:41:55,540 --> 00:41:51,950 everything and nothing ok well there's 844 00:42:03,609 --> 00:41:55,550 something to certainly remember him by 845 00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:06,549 fate magazine provides true reports of 846 00:42:11,229 --> 00:42:08,660 the strange and unknown keep up with the 847 00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:11,239 latest on angels and miracles psychic 848 00:42:15,489 --> 00:42:14,390 phenomena ghosts UFOs life after death 849 00:42:17,739 --> 00:42:15,499 and much much more 850 00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:17,749 to receive your free issue of fate 851 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:20,390 magazine call now at one eight hundred 852 00:42:28,539 --> 00:42:24,410 seven two eight two seven three zero or 853 00:42:31,019 --> 00:42:28,549 visit their website at WWF at medCom 854 00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:31,029 that's one eight hundred seven two eight 855 00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:39,920 twenty seven thirty or WWF a tem AG calm 856 00:42:46,839 --> 00:42:42,319 what are you waiting for your fate 857 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:46,849 awaits hi this is Don Ecker and you are 858 00:42:51,969 --> 00:42:49,729 tuned in to the para cast let me tell 859 00:42:54,849 --> 00:42:51,979 you what you're gonna hear stuff here 860 00:43:00,670 --> 00:42:54,859 that you probably won't hear anywhere 861 00:43:02,859 --> 00:43:00,680 else our co-host is Greg Bishop we're 862 00:43:06,279 --> 00:43:02,869 featuring Bob Wilkinson director of 863 00:43:10,029 --> 00:43:06,289 shades of grey' about the life and times 864 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:10,039 of grey bark er certainly unusual very 865 00:43:14,650 --> 00:43:12,170 talented figure in UFO research along 866 00:43:16,839 --> 00:43:14,660 for the ride Allan Greenfield and gia 867 00:43:20,019 --> 00:43:16,849 Mosley both of whom knew gray very well 868 00:43:21,759 --> 00:43:20,029 Bob so listening to Allan's kind of 869 00:43:24,370 --> 00:43:21,769 revisionist statement here what's your 870 00:43:26,739 --> 00:43:24,380 reaction well I agree with the the 871 00:43:28,329 --> 00:43:26,749 folklorist aspect I think that's 872 00:43:31,509 --> 00:43:28,339 ingrained in our culture here in 873 00:43:33,279 --> 00:43:31,519 Appalachia in West Virginia and you know 874 00:43:35,170 --> 00:43:33,289 and I've got in trouble for saying this 875 00:43:37,690 --> 00:43:35,180 on some of the interviews that I've done 876 00:43:41,259 --> 00:43:37,700 and the listeners kind of get on to me 877 00:43:43,420 --> 00:43:41,269 but I think a lot of these stories that 878 00:43:46,059 --> 00:43:43,430 Gray Parker spoke about started with a 879 00:43:48,430 --> 00:43:46,069 grain of truth whether it be someone you 880 00:43:51,069 --> 00:43:48,440 know he gathered the story from from 881 00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:51,079 someone as a reporter and we kind of 882 00:43:57,489 --> 00:43:53,839 grew from there and it's not saying that 883 00:43:58,989 --> 00:43:57,499 something if something did happen and on 884 00:44:01,299 --> 00:43:58,999 the genesis of these stories whether it 885 00:44:03,489 --> 00:44:01,309 be someone's making them up or had a 886 00:44:05,799 --> 00:44:03,499 genuine experience and I think Greg 887 00:44:08,049 --> 00:44:05,809 Walker took that and he ran with it so I 888 00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:08,059 do see him there the sole course because 889 00:44:13,550 --> 00:44:10,380 he's gathering these stories and 890 00:44:15,260 --> 00:44:13,560 and you know a lot of them have grown to 891 00:44:16,220 --> 00:44:15,270 where the where they are today because 892 00:44:19,210 --> 00:44:16,230 of great worker 893 00:44:21,620 --> 00:44:19,220 and that's central to understanding 894 00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:21,630 Appalachian really let's look at the men 895 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:24,240 in black okay so certainly we have the 896 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:26,010 original our Kate bender story and they 897 00:44:30,860 --> 00:44:28,410 knew too much about flying saucers where 898 00:44:33,170 --> 00:44:30,870 he is supposedly visited by three men in 899 00:44:36,590 --> 00:44:33,180 black told to shut up because he found 900 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:36,600 out the truth about UFOs but the men and 901 00:44:40,460 --> 00:44:38,610 black is taking on a life of its own 902 00:44:43,370 --> 00:44:40,470 can you talk about that Bob you know if 903 00:44:45,350 --> 00:44:43,380 you go back to the great early books I 904 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:45,360 think it's you know he's talking about 905 00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:47,130 the bingo you know you have this secret 906 00:44:52,220 --> 00:44:49,200 and you can't let it out or it'll get 907 00:44:54,380 --> 00:44:52,230 you into trouble and you know it's 908 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:54,390 growing into this friendly movie that it 909 00:44:59,240 --> 00:44:56,490 is today and you know this it's not the 910 00:45:00,680 --> 00:44:59,250 same I think Greg Barker was more as Jim 911 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:00,690 and everyone have talked about his 912 00:45:04,190 --> 00:45:02,010 background is in horror and science 913 00:45:05,650 --> 00:45:04,200 fiction he liked that as a kid and I 914 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:05,660 think he was writing a Tara you know 915 00:45:09,890 --> 00:45:08,490 it's a book about terror you know today 916 00:45:11,090 --> 00:45:09,900 it's growing into these blockbuster 917 00:45:15,170 --> 00:45:11,100 moves and there's nothing like part 918 00:45:16,670 --> 00:45:15,180 three on the men in black and but think 919 00:45:19,220 --> 00:45:16,680 that it had that resonate with grade 920 00:45:21,740 --> 00:45:19,230 because of his life and I think he did 921 00:45:24,490 --> 00:45:21,750 have that side of him where he had a 922 00:45:26,330 --> 00:45:24,500 secret of his own and he couldn't 923 00:45:28,010 --> 00:45:26,340 especially living in West Virginia 924 00:45:31,970 --> 00:45:28,020 Appalachia that secret couldn't come out 925 00:45:33,890 --> 00:45:31,980 and has someone in the documentary said 926 00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:33,900 I think it was a curator of his 927 00:45:38,990 --> 00:45:35,760 collection it's better to be known as 928 00:45:40,940 --> 00:45:39,000 the UFO guy in small-town Appalachia 929 00:45:44,870 --> 00:45:40,950 I think the men in black resonated with 930 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:44,880 him and that's okay but men in black do 931 00:45:48,650 --> 00:45:46,890 you cover in your documentary the 932 00:45:50,660 --> 00:45:48,660 history of where that went or just leave 933 00:45:56,140 --> 00:45:50,670 it to the extent of grey Parker's 934 00:46:00,920 --> 00:45:59,600 friendship with bender and that kind of 935 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:00,930 got him going in the field he was an 936 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:03,690 investigator for out bender and Alvin 937 00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:06,330 there's still the letters in the archive 938 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:08,310 up there where bender would send him a 939 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:10,770 letter saying hey go investigate this 940 00:46:15,770 --> 00:46:13,050 case and marker we'll go investigate it 941 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:15,780 and he wrote for bender and you know 942 00:46:21,890 --> 00:46:19,410 bender closes shop and in a way it was 943 00:46:22,340 --> 00:46:21,900 passed you know benders publication was 944 00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:22,350 kind of 945 00:46:28,430 --> 00:46:26,400 you know grabbed a torsion ran with it 946 00:46:30,890 --> 00:46:28,440 from there as far as the dizzying 947 00:46:32,750 --> 00:46:30,900 publication with the solitary then but 948 00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:32,760 it covers the early idea of men and 949 00:46:37,220 --> 00:46:34,350 black where they were established there 950 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:37,230 and they were labeled the men in black 951 00:46:41,660 --> 00:46:39,690 in Barker's book and so I don't really 952 00:46:45,670 --> 00:46:41,670 go back into the past because there's 953 00:46:48,860 --> 00:46:45,680 more historic evidence that there's 954 00:46:50,330 --> 00:46:48,870 there's incidents involving you know the 955 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:50,340 mysterious men in black but they were 956 00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:52,170 never researchers in my be or men and 957 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:54,240 like anything like that so it was a 958 00:46:58,700 --> 00:46:56,490 matter of the labeling now did you cover 959 00:47:01,250 --> 00:46:58,710 this does anyone know we understand 960 00:47:03,110 --> 00:47:01,260 before there was a movie men and black 961 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:03,120 there was a comic book 962 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:06,330 now nobody had the rights to men in 963 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:07,890 black no one went to great Barker and 964 00:47:13,070 --> 00:47:09,570 said we're gonna do a comic book on this 965 00:47:14,060 --> 00:47:13,080 here's 500 million dollars right and I 966 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:14,070 think that's the dangerous thing that 967 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:16,370 marker was treading in because he's 968 00:47:22,060 --> 00:47:18,930 creating a folklore but at the same time 969 00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:22,070 he's passing it off as journalism and 970 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:25,440 and it gets into the same thing was the 971 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:28,650 book Holy Blood Holy Grail and when they 972 00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:31,650 sued Dan Brown and basically the only 973 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:32,730 way they could follow through with that 974 00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:34,290 lawsuit to say hey you owe us money 975 00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:35,910 because you stole our work is to say 976 00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:39,510 we're a fraud and our book is a fraud 977 00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:42,720 and and they were unwilling to admit 978 00:47:48,020 --> 00:47:44,990 that so there's you can't copyright an 979 00:47:50,510 --> 00:47:48,030 incident that you claim to be true so 980 00:47:52,820 --> 00:47:50,520 soon as gray Barker said the men in 981 00:47:54,770 --> 00:47:52,830 black happened than anybody can go out 982 00:47:57,290 --> 00:47:54,780 there and say okay let's make a movie 983 00:47:59,120 --> 00:47:57,300 about men in black but it's gonna be of 984 00:48:01,730 --> 00:47:59,130 course a comedy movie or we'll do a 985 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:01,740 comic book or something like that yeah 986 00:48:06,290 --> 00:48:03,930 yeah because it's basically I mean 987 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:06,300 Barker I kind of if you go back to 988 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:08,490 Barker's writings even the MIB the 989 00:48:13,550 --> 00:48:10,290 secret era among us you read that book 990 00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:13,560 and Barker is knowin Barker and the 991 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:15,510 letters that I've read I can see some of 992 00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:16,890 the tongue in chief writing that he does 993 00:48:23,930 --> 00:48:20,160 and but I think that once you establish 994 00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:23,940 it as journalism then it's out there and 995 00:48:29,630 --> 00:48:26,730 there's you can't you can't go back from 996 00:48:31,980 --> 00:48:29,640 that so this is kind of an unusual form 997 00:48:35,550 --> 00:48:31,990 of journalism then because it's taking a 998 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:35,560 basic factual concept and then immersing 999 00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:38,530 it in some sort of fictional veneer can 1000 00:48:42,540 --> 00:48:40,720 you ask that again okay you take a 1001 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:42,550 factual concept of some sort 1002 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:45,610 then you embellish it and so it is no 1003 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:47,650 longer the core event but something a 1004 00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:50,890 little bit greater so then what do we 1005 00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:52,480 call a fiction that we call in fact 1006 00:48:56,820 --> 00:48:53,710 section what do we call it 1007 00:48:59,640 --> 00:48:56,830 historiography is that is the correct 1008 00:49:04,470 --> 00:48:59,650 term all movies about history in 1009 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:04,480 subfactor are abridged and embellish but 1010 00:49:08,850 --> 00:49:06,610 they're not necessarily untrue they and 1011 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:08,860 the History Channel for awhile hand I 1012 00:49:12,900 --> 00:49:11,050 don't know how accurate the History 1013 00:49:14,609 --> 00:49:12,910 Channel's documentaries are but they do 1014 00:49:16,590 --> 00:49:14,619 a documentary and then they show the 1015 00:49:18,810 --> 00:49:16,600 movie about the same era and of course 1016 00:49:20,430 --> 00:49:18,820 there are differences in the film so 1017 00:49:23,010 --> 00:49:20,440 does that make the film untrue that 1018 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:23,020 depends on how you define it the movie 1019 00:49:30,930 --> 00:49:26,050 Pearl Harbor isn't exactly an account of 1020 00:49:34,890 --> 00:49:30,940 all the documentaries about Pearl Harbor 1021 00:49:36,690 --> 00:49:34,900 certainly the the Battle of Midway where 1022 00:49:40,620 --> 00:49:36,700 the movie ends so that it ends on a 1023 00:49:43,380 --> 00:49:40,630 somewhat less defeatist all you're doing 1024 00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:43,390 is you're taking an actual historic 1025 00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:45,250 event and you're creating a fictional 1026 00:49:49,620 --> 00:49:47,920 film using that historic event is the 1027 00:49:52,590 --> 00:49:49,630 basis so of course you have films about 1028 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:52,600 Nazis in about World War two where you 1029 00:49:56,849 --> 00:49:54,970 know of course that in the movie 1030 00:49:59,609 --> 00:49:56,859 inglorious basterds they didn't kill 1031 00:50:01,050 --> 00:49:59,619 Hitler that way yes that's that's quite 1032 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:01,060 true and that's carrying it a bit 1033 00:50:07,470 --> 00:50:04,170 further on that's that's obviously 1034 00:50:10,050 --> 00:50:07,480 purely mythical although it's based on 1035 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:10,060 historically authentic characters and 1036 00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:13,090 some of them and at least the background 1037 00:50:19,050 --> 00:50:15,730 characters are and to the extent that 1038 00:50:20,910 --> 00:50:19,060 they characterizations are well done you 1039 00:50:23,550 --> 00:50:20,920 could say that as I as a character 1040 00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:23,560 development thing that it it gets Hitler 1041 00:50:27,620 --> 00:50:25,510 it doesn't get him where whereas you 1042 00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:27,630 know it's in a different job 1043 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:30,240 but movies that like the longest day 1044 00:50:35,330 --> 00:50:33,690 which is another d-day film are roughly 1045 00:50:37,610 --> 00:50:35,340 accurate I mean I've talked to d-day 1046 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:37,620 veterans in fact in recent years some of 1047 00:50:43,070 --> 00:50:41,010 them getting elderly are starting to 1048 00:50:46,220 --> 00:50:43,080 open up in ways that I never saw before 1049 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:46,230 never thought they would and their 1050 00:50:54,110 --> 00:50:50,490 stories are very very very much like the 1051 00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:54,120 film's subjectively I think film is a 1052 00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:57,210 subjective medium it's meant to be it's 1053 00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:00,000 meant to be absorbed in a visual 1054 00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:02,880 auditory sort of way as opposed to let's 1055 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:08,160 say an historical wall a history in a 1056 00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:10,530 Henneberg which is designed to be 1057 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:13,260 factual even to the point of being 1058 00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:16,410 boring but nevertheless it has the 1059 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:17,760 minutia correct 1060 00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:21,330 sometimes that's missing the forest 1061 00:51:28,370 --> 00:51:24,000 before the trees and there is something 1062 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:28,380 to be said for the historical novel and 1063 00:51:34,070 --> 00:51:31,050 their historical projection and film as 1064 00:51:37,010 --> 00:51:34,080 getting to the inner gut-level truth of 1065 00:51:39,050 --> 00:51:37,020 something rather than simply recite 1066 00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:39,060 recitation of the facts and I think that 1067 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:42,000 was the channel that gray was on he knew 1068 00:51:50,510 --> 00:51:46,770 the the feel and could put successfully 1069 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:50,520 as two writers in ufology have been able 1070 00:51:59,150 --> 00:51:54,690 to do the feel of being around a spooky 1071 00:52:02,810 --> 00:51:59,160 case whether it's a monster case or new 1072 00:52:07,490 --> 00:52:02,820 phone case or even have one contact the 1073 00:52:10,550 --> 00:52:07,500 eerie feeling involved in it it's that 1074 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:10,560 part and parcel of history simply to 1075 00:52:16,670 --> 00:52:12,930 recite it in a dr. Hynek sort of manner 1076 00:52:19,460 --> 00:52:16,680 and evaluated it's kind of missing the 1077 00:52:22,370 --> 00:52:19,470 experiential part of it great never miss 1078 00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:22,380 the experiential part up and I think 1079 00:52:29,140 --> 00:52:25,110 that that is probably just as important 1080 00:52:31,779 --> 00:52:29,150 they're getting all the facts back down 1081 00:52:33,489 --> 00:52:31,789 because ultimately an experience in the 1082 00:52:35,650 --> 00:52:33,499 fields like the car wreck you're never 1083 00:52:37,539 --> 00:52:35,660 really going to know for sure if it 1084 00:52:39,789 --> 00:52:37,549 happened exactly the way any given 1085 00:52:42,009 --> 00:52:39,799 witness does it because well it's even 1086 00:52:43,859 --> 00:52:42,019 become more so nowadays of course if you 1087 00:52:45,339 --> 00:52:43,869 listen to the political Talking Heads on 1088 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:45,349 cable TV 1089 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:48,170 they are so diametrically opposed in 1090 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:49,730 their interpretation of events you have 1091 00:52:55,509 --> 00:52:53,210 no clue what's going on raises questions 1092 00:52:57,609 --> 00:52:55,519 about all of history doesn't it I mean 1093 00:53:00,039 --> 00:52:57,619 if you if you watch the three news 1094 00:53:03,279 --> 00:53:00,049 channels if you go to the what I call 1095 00:53:05,950 --> 00:53:03,289 the commie Channel MSNBC you get one 1096 00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:05,960 interpretation you get the and I don't 1097 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:08,089 say that son lovingly I'm a fan of the 1098 00:53:13,779 --> 00:53:11,930 Connie channel you go to Fox News the 1099 00:53:17,700 --> 00:53:13,789 news and quotes there and you get the 1100 00:53:20,049 --> 00:53:17,710 tea party viewer world history go to CNN 1101 00:53:22,210 --> 00:53:20,059 it's somewhere in between but it 1102 00:53:23,259 --> 00:53:22,220 nevertheless as a corporate opinion and 1103 00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:23,269 there are things that are said and 1104 00:53:27,220 --> 00:53:25,730 things that are not said and even on 1105 00:53:29,470 --> 00:53:27,230 this program there are things you know 1106 00:53:32,829 --> 00:53:29,480 but I can't say and the way that I would 1107 00:53:34,809 --> 00:53:32,839 like to say them because they're they've 1108 00:53:36,849 --> 00:53:34,819 become politically incorrect there are 1109 00:53:39,819 --> 00:53:36,859 words that we're expunging from the 1110 00:53:43,059 --> 00:53:39,829 English language that hit the gut rather 1111 00:53:47,289 --> 00:53:43,069 than the brain and I think that there 1112 00:53:49,390 --> 00:53:47,299 are if you take a given news event and 1113 00:53:52,299 --> 00:53:49,400 go through that permutation you're going 1114 00:53:55,089 --> 00:53:52,309 to get totally different interpretations 1115 00:53:57,700 --> 00:53:55,099 well which one is true probably none of 1116 00:54:02,349 --> 00:53:57,710 them and probably all of them and I 1117 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:02,359 think the recognition that they'd be the 1118 00:54:07,839 --> 00:54:04,970 scientist and the white coat behind the 1119 00:54:09,519 --> 00:54:07,849 glass pane can observe reality when our 1120 00:54:12,519 --> 00:54:09,529 highs in burka and we need to 1121 00:54:14,950 --> 00:54:12,529 acknowledge that it simply there may be 1122 00:54:17,319 --> 00:54:14,960 an objective reality out there I am 1123 00:54:20,079 --> 00:54:17,329 inclined to think that there is but our 1124 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:20,089 access to it is limited by our senses 1125 00:54:26,620 --> 00:54:24,410 and our little hairy biped brains and 1126 00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:26,630 our instruments yeah exactly 1127 00:54:31,029 --> 00:54:28,400 well our instruments are extensions of 1128 00:54:32,380 --> 00:54:31,039 our brain can't go and we design the 1129 00:54:34,270 --> 00:54:32,390 instruments according to what we're 1130 00:54:38,410 --> 00:54:34,280 capable of reading you know so 1131 00:54:40,210 --> 00:54:38,420 it really begs the question what do we 1132 00:54:42,850 --> 00:54:40,220 really know I think we can only 1133 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:42,860 approximate truth and truth always 1134 00:54:47,890 --> 00:54:45,770 involves both the Objectivist and the 1135 00:54:50,290 --> 00:54:47,900 subjective truth most of them are 1136 00:54:52,090 --> 00:54:50,300 currents I mean there are people who 1137 00:54:54,550 --> 00:54:52,100 have approached very closely long before 1138 00:54:57,580 --> 00:54:54,560 great barker Carl Jung he came very 1139 00:54:59,920 --> 00:54:57,590 close to to dealing with that but the 1140 00:55:02,800 --> 00:54:59,930 fact is that the information that was 1141 00:55:03,630 --> 00:55:02,810 available to young when he address UFOs 1142 00:55:09,850 --> 00:55:03,640 woods 1143 00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:09,860 I think assess injure and his crew who 1144 00:55:16,270 --> 00:55:13,760 are the founders of the notion of 1145 00:55:19,930 --> 00:55:16,280 cognitive dissonance and when prophesy 1146 00:55:22,540 --> 00:55:19,940 fails get very close to as close to 1147 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:22,550 truth as we can get the book is often 1148 00:55:27,490 --> 00:55:24,530 considered to bunky book I don't 1149 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:27,500 consider either a modernist young 1150 00:55:33,550 --> 00:55:31,490 tomorrow or Center at all when prophecy 1151 00:55:36,490 --> 00:55:33,560 fails to be negative I consider them to 1152 00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:36,500 be actually increases our understanding 1153 00:55:43,420 --> 00:55:39,710 of the subjective nature of what we're 1154 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:43,430 doing yeah it's um with regard to Barker 1155 00:55:48,310 --> 00:55:46,130 it seems like and anybody can respond to 1156 00:55:51,310 --> 00:55:48,320 this is that he was mining that area 1157 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:51,320 that is very important like you just 1158 00:55:56,980 --> 00:55:54,050 said of the subjective because we're 1159 00:55:59,110 --> 00:55:56,990 emotional and intellectual creatures 1160 00:56:00,730 --> 00:55:59,120 reasoning and emotional creatures and 1161 00:56:04,030 --> 00:56:00,740 you have to address both sides of that 1162 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:04,040 when speaking about anything as I guess 1163 00:56:08,830 --> 00:56:06,770 particularly the UFO subject we're still 1164 00:56:11,260 --> 00:56:08,840 not much more is known than when it 1165 00:56:14,260 --> 00:56:11,270 first burst on the scene yeah exactly 1166 00:56:17,650 --> 00:56:14,270 Jim you have any reaction about yes well 1167 00:56:21,790 --> 00:56:17,660 I think that last point was very well 1168 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:21,800 made after all these years of research 1169 00:56:29,140 --> 00:56:25,610 and string and writing and thinking we 1170 00:56:32,770 --> 00:56:29,150 still haven't got a clue really of what 1171 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:32,780 the truth about flying saucers really is 1172 00:56:40,570 --> 00:56:36,410 the objective to if there is one and 1173 00:56:42,970 --> 00:56:40,580 that has eluded us completely up until 1174 00:56:45,420 --> 00:56:42,980 the present time and so if you put that 1175 00:56:49,350 --> 00:56:45,430 into the 1176 00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:49,360 you'd have to say that there was some 1177 00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:52,720 kind of subjective truth at least in 1178 00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:55,690 everything very bars are old exactly 1179 00:57:02,250 --> 00:56:58,720 that's that's except that I would add to 1180 00:57:04,830 --> 00:57:02,260 that that subjective truth is as 1181 00:57:06,660 --> 00:57:04,840 important to human beings into our 1182 00:57:08,970 --> 00:57:06,670 understanding of ourselves which is 1183 00:57:10,620 --> 00:57:08,980 after all the basis of any inquiry we're 1184 00:57:13,590 --> 00:57:10,630 trying to understand ourselves and our 1185 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:13,600 place in the universe as any reporter 1186 00:57:17,580 --> 00:57:16,210 objective truth you know this makes 1187 00:57:19,650 --> 00:57:17,590 things all the more difficult because 1188 00:57:21,290 --> 00:57:19,660 this is something we've talked about the 1189 00:57:24,510 --> 00:57:21,300 power cast on a number of occasions 1190 00:57:26,940 --> 00:57:24,520 people expect to have answers black and 1191 00:57:28,770 --> 00:57:26,950 white readers digest versions and as 1192 00:57:31,410 --> 00:57:28,780 soon as you start mentioning the various 1193 00:57:34,290 --> 00:57:31,420 shades of grey to mention the title of 1194 00:57:36,870 --> 00:57:34,300 this documentary it becomes very 1195 00:57:39,300 --> 00:57:36,880 difficult to convey that message to 1196 00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:39,310 people it may be difficult but that's 1197 00:57:47,100 --> 00:57:42,720 what is necessary people are looking for 1198 00:57:50,490 --> 00:57:47,110 for Klaatu and it depends on which 1199 00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:50,500 version of Klaatu you want either one is 1200 00:57:57,660 --> 00:57:55,810 very questionable I don't I don't think 1201 00:58:02,100 --> 00:57:57,670 I think we can make a great deal of 1202 00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:02,110 progress on the subjective the reality 1203 00:58:08,340 --> 00:58:06,250 of man-meat alien no double entendre 1204 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:08,350 intended although we Blanco in that 1205 00:58:14,190 --> 00:58:11,410 direction as well the fear of the alien 1206 00:58:16,410 --> 00:58:14,200 the attraction to the alien the power of 1207 00:58:19,230 --> 00:58:16,420 the other we can get a lot further with 1208 00:58:22,890 --> 00:58:19,240 that that's something we're able to just 1209 00:58:27,510 --> 00:58:22,900 feel in our in the visceral sense and 1210 00:58:29,970 --> 00:58:27,520 and articulate much better than an 1211 00:58:30,330 --> 00:58:29,980 objective truth that assuming there is 1212 00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:30,340 one 1213 00:58:36,330 --> 00:58:32,880 and again I tend to think that there is 1214 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:36,340 it may be beyond our comprehension and 1215 00:58:44,910 --> 00:58:42,130 we may in fact have to only understand 1216 00:58:47,310 --> 00:58:44,920 it to the extent that we are capable of 1217 00:58:49,650 --> 00:58:47,320 it my favorite book on the subject would 1218 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:49,660 be flatland which was really well over 1219 00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:52,290 100 years ago which is 1220 00:58:56,510 --> 00:58:54,450 two dimensional creatures trying to 1221 00:58:59,930 --> 00:58:56,520 understand three dimensional beings and 1222 00:59:03,440 --> 00:58:59,940 the implications there of all you can do 1223 00:59:05,930 --> 00:59:03,450 is approximate that bad before we split 1224 00:59:08,810 --> 00:59:05,940 for the hourly break here Bob can you 1225 00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:08,820 tell our listeners how they can see or 1226 00:59:15,020 --> 00:59:12,510 get a copy of Shades of Grey yes the 1227 00:59:17,810 --> 00:59:15,030 easiest way is just to go to our website 1228 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:17,820 that they knew too much calm and 1229 00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:20,490 there'll be a couple links there it's a 1230 00:59:24,410 --> 00:59:22,170 bit on there's links to amazon.com 1231 00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:24,420 there's links to Netflix if you want to 1232 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:26,480 stream it online you can do that and 1233 00:59:31,460 --> 00:59:28,290 blockbuster also it's also available 1234 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:31,470 there and and pretty much anywhere as 1235 00:59:38,180 --> 00:59:35,250 you do your shopping Walmart Target Best 1236 00:59:40,820 --> 00:59:38,190 Buy so it's all available online I would 1237 00:59:43,370 --> 00:59:40,830 say you know you might be hard-pressed 1238 00:59:45,830 --> 00:59:43,380 to see it carried in the store there's 1239 00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:45,840 kind of cutting back on what titles they 1240 00:59:49,850 --> 00:59:47,850 buy and sisters in a blockbuster title 1241 00:59:51,470 --> 00:59:49,860 I'm not sure that you'll find it but you 1242 00:59:55,490 --> 00:59:51,480 can go to their website and find it 1243 00:59:57,710 --> 00:59:55,500 we'll be back with Bob Wilkins and Jim 1244 01:00:00,410 --> 00:59:57,720 Mosely Allen Greenfield our co-host is 1245 01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:00,420 Greg Bishop on the other side of the 1246 01:00:07,610 --> 01:00:05,970 power cast we want to hear from you if 1247 01:00:10,580 --> 01:00:07,620 you have a comment or question about the 1248 01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:10,590 pair cast send it to news at the pair 1249 01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:11,610 cast com 1250 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:14,850 that's news at the pair cast calm and 1251 01:00:18,470 --> 01:00:16,770 don't forget to visit our forums where 1252 01:00:21,020 --> 01:00:18,480 you can talk to fellow listeners just go 1253 01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:21,030 to the para cast comm and click on the 1254 01:00:31,569 --> 01:00:23,520 forum links that's the forum links at 1255 01:00:40,310 --> 01:00:33,980 welcome back to the parrot house with 1256 01:00:46,010 --> 01:00:43,580 we return our coats is Greg Bishop we're 1257 01:00:48,500 --> 01:00:46,020 talking with Bob Wilkinson he's director 1258 01:00:51,950 --> 01:00:48,510 of a new film Shades of Grey about the 1259 01:00:55,130 --> 01:00:51,960 life and times of the UFO provocateur 1260 01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:55,140 none other than gray Barker two of his 1261 01:01:00,830 --> 01:00:57,330 close friends with us was well Jim 1262 01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:00,840 Mosley and Allan Greenfield yeah I had a 1263 01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:04,170 question for Jim and I while knowing 1264 01:01:08,930 --> 01:01:05,730 that he may be picking up every other 1265 01:01:11,570 --> 01:01:08,940 word I'll try to let me give the 1266 01:01:15,290 --> 01:01:11,580 background just briefly exactly and I 1267 01:01:18,710 --> 01:01:15,300 did an episode of the late and in my 1268 01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:18,720 element if you have the hunters on the 1269 01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:23,130 men in black last year their last season 1270 01:01:29,930 --> 01:01:25,050 if it turns out which we knew at the 1271 01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:29,940 time and it was they left out some stuff 1272 01:01:33,620 --> 01:01:31,650 but they treated me very nicely at 1273 01:01:37,340 --> 01:01:33,630 second time overthrowing they're very 1274 01:01:40,210 --> 01:01:37,350 nice folks although a level of 1275 01:01:43,850 --> 01:01:40,220 comprehension of what's really going on 1276 01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:43,860 less than perfect it all surprise 1277 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:48,810 yeah well they also left out my own one 1278 01:01:56,030 --> 01:01:51,450 and only men in black case which I find 1279 01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:56,040 curious Betty they did have on I had 1280 01:02:00,260 --> 01:01:57,930 mentioned that one of the photos that 1281 01:02:03,350 --> 01:02:00,270 you can't release rely is you know not 1282 01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:03,360 opposed shot appeared originally in 1283 01:02:10,850 --> 01:02:07,440 saucer news and that achlys that's the 1284 01:02:14,870 --> 01:02:10,860 one were where this mafiosi type guy is 1285 01:02:17,510 --> 01:02:14,880 shadowing the Jackie Mary Robinson god 1286 01:02:19,250 --> 01:02:17,520 rest her soul okay we should mention 1287 01:02:21,140 --> 01:02:19,260 that jacqueline married more often since 1288 01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:21,150 you'd mentioned who they were UFO 1289 01:02:26,900 --> 01:02:23,490 researchers that were close with Jim 1290 01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:26,910 Mosely oh yeah and friends of mine okay 1291 01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:31,290 and friends of mine as well and Friends 1292 01:02:34,310 --> 01:02:32,640 of your own a foreigner which is all 1293 01:02:36,050 --> 01:02:34,320 will have a surgeon and of itself I 1294 01:02:41,450 --> 01:02:36,060 think more important than anybody 1295 01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:41,460 realizes but in any case the photo as I 1296 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:43,650 had understood it over the years was 1297 01:02:51,420 --> 01:02:47,970 taken by Jim Mosley as it was shown by 1298 01:02:55,589 --> 01:02:51,430 mr. UFO my good friend Jim and 1299 01:02:57,690 --> 01:02:55,599 he was he described it as he took the 1300 01:02:59,549 --> 01:02:57,700 photo so I wonder if Jim was clarify who 1301 01:03:05,160 --> 01:02:59,559 actually took the photo 1302 01:03:08,030 --> 01:03:05,170 was it you or was it or was it I call 1303 01:03:11,609 --> 01:03:08,040 the following situation there was 1304 01:03:15,180 --> 01:03:11,619 something peculiar going on in the block 1305 01:03:19,710 --> 01:03:15,190 in Jersey City where Jack and Mary 1306 01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:19,720 Robinson would and I cannot remember the 1307 01:03:28,650 --> 01:03:23,530 details but I remember Jim Beckley and 1308 01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:28,660 I'm driving buying black block for a 1309 01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:32,050 couple of times I don't remember who was 1310 01:03:37,130 --> 01:03:34,450 driving in took the picture about that 1311 01:03:42,780 --> 01:03:37,140 makes any difference but there was a 1312 01:03:45,299 --> 01:03:42,790 strange so sort of half hiding in the 1313 01:03:48,660 --> 01:03:45,309 doorway I remember he was very well 1314 01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:48,670 dressed and there was a winter or at 1315 01:03:54,540 --> 01:03:50,770 least cold weather he had on a very 1316 01:03:56,339 --> 01:03:54,550 expensive-looking overcoat and we took 1317 01:04:00,329 --> 01:03:56,349 his picture as she stood in that doorway 1318 01:04:02,819 --> 01:04:00,339 you know the whole connection to the men 1319 01:04:05,460 --> 01:04:02,829 in black is actually rather absurd 1320 01:04:08,940 --> 01:04:05,470 because I can't imagine that there was 1321 01:04:11,220 --> 01:04:08,950 any the best objective thought that we 1322 01:04:14,370 --> 01:04:11,230 ever came up with was that there was 1323 01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:14,380 perhaps a a bookie joint in that block 1324 01:04:19,049 --> 01:04:16,000 and this fellow might have been the 1325 01:04:22,319 --> 01:04:19,059 lookout standing outside of the place 1326 01:04:24,870 --> 01:04:22,329 but we've had obviously nothing whatever 1327 01:04:29,750 --> 01:04:24,880 to do with the Robinsons or with flying 1328 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:29,760 saucers but the picture is genuine as 1329 01:04:34,829 --> 01:04:32,170 you know I was just wondering because I 1330 01:04:37,109 --> 01:04:34,839 had recalled at the time and my memory 1331 01:04:39,390 --> 01:04:37,119 on that may be faulty that you had said 1332 01:04:41,819 --> 01:04:39,400 you took the photo and Tim was with you 1333 01:04:44,220 --> 01:04:41,829 and the way it got on TV was the other 1334 01:04:46,650 --> 01:04:44,230 way around and you didn't get mentioned 1335 01:04:50,430 --> 01:04:46,660 at all although I have sort of birds 1336 01:04:53,010 --> 01:04:50,440 that that was I mean the assuming that 1337 01:04:56,910 --> 01:04:53,020 it is of more significance than you 1338 01:05:00,030 --> 01:04:56,920 yourself think it is the the reason I 1339 01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:00,040 considered it to be a reliable case of 1340 01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:03,490 where it is is because you were watching 1341 01:05:09,300 --> 01:05:05,770 Tim Tim was watching you and I don't 1342 01:05:13,950 --> 01:05:09,310 think that it was a hoax or a God up 1343 01:05:17,850 --> 01:05:13,960 photo nefarious looking guy outside the 1344 01:05:20,700 --> 01:05:17,860 building of where two well-known UFO 1345 01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:20,710 investigators lived at the time I think 1346 01:05:24,750 --> 01:05:23,110 the term million block is a loose you 1347 01:05:27,450 --> 01:05:24,760 know first of all most most of the time 1348 01:05:31,010 --> 01:05:27,460 they're not in black that's just the 1349 01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:31,020 case and well I think it's interesting 1350 01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:35,530 you know we have so many UFO features 1351 01:05:41,550 --> 01:05:38,370 especially now as technology gets better 1352 01:05:44,970 --> 01:05:41,560 where the picture itself is a hoax 1353 01:05:47,310 --> 01:05:44,980 through technology of various sorts none 1354 01:05:49,230 --> 01:05:47,320 of which I understand but the good thing 1355 01:05:51,660 --> 01:05:49,240 about this picture that we're talking 1356 01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:51,670 about is that the picture itself is 1357 01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:54,850 absolutely genuine the only thing wrong 1358 01:06:00,330 --> 01:05:57,370 is the interpretation that we get for 1359 01:06:03,650 --> 01:06:00,340 well that's not necessarily wrong it's 1360 01:06:06,420 --> 01:06:03,660 just that it's a matter of opinion and 1361 01:06:08,610 --> 01:06:06,430 my point was I consider the photo 1362 01:06:10,860 --> 01:06:08,620 authentic because I consider you off 1363 01:06:13,650 --> 01:06:10,870 hunting that is I know when you're doing 1364 01:06:15,660 --> 01:06:13,660 a hoax it's hot at least I think that I 1365 01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:15,670 do and you said it was from young and 1366 01:06:21,870 --> 01:06:17,890 you know private to me so I took that to 1367 01:06:24,750 --> 01:06:21,880 be you know word of the law okay we've 1368 01:06:28,170 --> 01:06:24,760 clarified that let's look into gray bark 1369 01:06:31,350 --> 01:06:28,180 or the hoaxer then Bob can you tell us 1370 01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:31,360 some examples of gray Barkers pranks 1371 01:06:36,900 --> 01:06:32,650 that you might have explored in that 1372 01:06:38,730 --> 01:06:36,910 film oh god Jim would probably be better 1373 01:06:42,270 --> 01:06:38,740 to speak about because he was there for 1374 01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:42,280 a lot of them and most of the stories 1375 01:06:47,130 --> 01:06:44,290 that I gathered were from other 1376 01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:47,140 individuals but I asked them the most 1377 01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:49,690 famous prank was the straight letter 1378 01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:52,330 that was sent it was sent to George 1379 01:06:59,100 --> 01:06:56,770 Adamski and I really for others and and 1380 01:07:01,530 --> 01:06:59,110 this was a letter that that Barker had 1381 01:07:03,090 --> 01:07:01,540 typed up and said basically that 1382 01:07:04,590 --> 01:07:03,100 everything you know you the government 1383 01:07:06,990 --> 01:07:04,600 supports everything you know we can't 1384 01:07:10,530 --> 01:07:07,000 come out publicly and talk about it and 1385 01:07:13,170 --> 01:07:10,540 and you know the ski kind of trumpeted 1386 01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:13,180 the letter immediately and use it as 1387 01:07:17,820 --> 01:07:15,610 saying this is evidence the you know and 1388 01:07:19,140 --> 01:07:17,830 whether advanced advanced key himself 1389 01:07:21,230 --> 01:07:19,150 believe it or not you know no one there 1390 01:07:23,490 --> 01:07:21,240 that's kind of speculation at this point 1391 01:07:26,100 --> 01:07:23,500 maybe your other guests could answer 1392 01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:26,110 that better than me but uh you know 1393 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:27,490 they've got Barker into a lot of trouble 1394 01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:30,250 because you know obviously you can't do 1395 01:07:37,890 --> 01:07:33,610 that on government letterhead so uh well 1396 01:07:40,670 --> 01:07:37,900 then were you there Jim oh yeah well I'd 1397 01:07:45,750 --> 01:07:40,680 like to give a little more detail and 1398 01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:45,760 actually detail on and also oh my god I 1399 01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:48,130 go into detail the story and Jim tells 1400 01:07:55,170 --> 01:07:50,410 the story in the film says Jim telling 1401 01:08:01,140 --> 01:07:55,180 the story of his grave marker knew a 1402 01:08:06,060 --> 01:08:01,150 young man whose father was trying in the 1403 01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:06,070 State Department so and the son was 1404 01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:09,970 interested in saucers the young fellow 1405 01:08:18,210 --> 01:08:13,450 and perhaps in plush like very Barker's 1406 01:08:22,440 --> 01:08:18,220 chemistry to be a horseman he decided to 1407 01:08:24,780 --> 01:08:22,450 send two more examples of the stationery 1408 01:08:27,330 --> 01:08:24,790 of several different government agency 1409 01:08:30,480 --> 01:08:27,340 which he was able to pick up the 1410 01:08:33,420 --> 01:08:30,490 presumably in visiting his father at the 1411 01:08:36,150 --> 01:08:33,430 State Department and so I don't remember 1412 01:08:38,970 --> 01:08:36,160 now I couldn't let you off and what 1413 01:08:41,370 --> 01:08:38,980 these personally seven different letter 1414 01:08:44,190 --> 01:08:41,380 heads were but one of them was of the 1415 01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:44,200 State Department and when a great 1416 01:08:50,430 --> 01:08:46,690 Buckner and I got together one did you 1417 01:08:54,030 --> 01:08:50,440 for a weekend in Clarksburg we had a bit 1418 01:08:59,630 --> 01:08:54,040 to drink I suppose and then we started 1419 01:09:02,550 --> 01:08:59,640 writing letters in various people and 1420 01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:02,560 all of them were pretty well lost in 1421 01:09:09,710 --> 01:09:05,410 history except the one we got so much 1422 01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:09,720 attention and I was one of the Barker 1423 01:09:16,509 --> 01:09:13,570 sang-moon stuff there are strengths of 1424 01:09:19,359 --> 01:09:16,519 the social comparison 1425 01:09:21,910 --> 01:09:19,369 of their age environment I don't 1426 01:09:24,189 --> 01:09:21,920 remember the exact text of the letter 1427 01:09:28,180 --> 01:09:24,199 but in very theory said that there are 1428 01:09:31,329 --> 01:09:28,190 those of us here who cannot because of 1429 01:09:33,939 --> 01:09:31,339 policy come out publicly and endorse 1430 01:09:35,049 --> 01:09:33,949 your claim the person taking the course 1431 01:09:37,599 --> 01:09:35,059 should be asking 1432 01:09:42,629 --> 01:09:37,609 we cannot publicly you endorse your 1433 01:09:44,950 --> 01:09:42,639 claims but we do have feelings toward 1434 01:09:48,359 --> 01:09:44,960 activities which are positive rather 1435 01:10:00,310 --> 01:09:48,369 than negative and it went on like that 1436 01:10:03,430 --> 01:10:00,320 anyone that knew because it searched out 1437 01:10:06,129 --> 01:10:03,440 my dear protector and one of the 1438 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:06,139 blockers will change in the secrecy was 1439 01:10:11,410 --> 01:10:09,650 to start his letters that way my dear 1440 01:10:13,750 --> 01:10:11,420 selling fair which is the one who's 1441 01:10:16,390 --> 01:10:13,760 awaiting further letter the other thing 1442 01:10:18,609 --> 01:10:16,400 I noticed by the way is grey Parker had 1443 01:10:20,350 --> 01:10:18,619 a distinctive writing style and if 1444 01:10:22,089 --> 01:10:20,360 familiar was that writing style he 1445 01:10:24,370 --> 01:10:22,099 didn't make any effort to change it and 1446 01:10:26,020 --> 01:10:24,380 certainly if both of you were blasted at 1447 01:10:26,470 --> 01:10:26,030 the time that you came up with this 1448 01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:26,480 prank 1449 01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:29,090 it wouldn't have involved a great effort 1450 01:10:42,839 --> 01:10:32,449 the letter was very distinctively grey 1451 01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:42,849 Barker George again she received this I 1452 01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:46,610 would imagine he must realize it was a 1453 01:10:54,839 --> 01:10:52,000 home but I don't bother them very much 1454 01:10:58,989 --> 01:10:54,849 [Music] 1455 01:11:08,350 --> 01:10:58,999 and he promises just as widely as 1456 01:11:13,089 --> 01:11:08,360 impossible code which I believe the FBI 1457 01:11:16,109 --> 01:11:13,099 at some point dancing tell them that the 1458 01:11:19,109 --> 01:11:16,119 weather was the face and just stop 1459 01:11:24,070 --> 01:11:19,119 publicizing it which of course made 1460 01:11:32,590 --> 01:11:27,530 investigation by the State Department at 1461 01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:32,600 a separate investigation by the PR as to 1462 01:11:40,550 --> 01:11:36,570 this whole thing because of other 1463 01:11:43,370 --> 01:11:40,560 serious crimes you miss you don't let 1464 01:11:46,220 --> 01:11:43,380 stationary in this manner but on the 1465 01:11:49,580 --> 01:11:46,230 other hand obviously there was no given 1466 01:11:53,270 --> 01:11:49,590 or enchanter there was nothing that 1467 01:11:56,810 --> 01:11:53,280 would like repair and other such things 1468 01:12:01,300 --> 01:11:56,820 every think of terrorism today and I 1469 01:12:04,490 --> 01:12:01,310 rather imagine although I shampoo that 1470 01:12:08,150 --> 01:12:04,500 young man must have told his father 1471 01:12:10,130 --> 01:12:08,160 about what happened and his father still 1472 01:12:13,790 --> 01:12:10,140 being in the State Department passed the 1473 01:12:17,510 --> 01:12:13,800 word that a more thorough investigation 1474 01:12:20,710 --> 01:12:17,520 was not needed because of the 1475 01:12:23,390 --> 01:12:20,720 circumstances involved in the 1476 01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:23,400 investigation I would say was squashed 1477 01:12:29,930 --> 01:12:26,640 at some point and did not proceed but 1478 01:12:32,150 --> 01:12:29,940 gray boxer wasn't riveted by one or both 1479 01:12:36,250 --> 01:12:32,160 of both entities I was not going to be 1480 01:12:42,490 --> 01:12:36,260 the time glad not to be and so the 1481 01:12:45,110 --> 01:12:42,500 largest occurred in 1957 I believe and 1482 01:12:47,420 --> 01:12:45,120 although certainly didn't think so 1483 01:12:51,890 --> 01:12:47,430 expected at the time the first pitch I 1484 01:12:56,020 --> 01:12:51,900 made a point of folklore I think al 1485 01:13:01,250 --> 01:12:56,030 could explain it in the in better words 1486 01:13:05,450 --> 01:13:01,260 some other things in rent and I can 1487 01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:05,460 close by saying that I told ray at some 1488 01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:07,970 point not much after that I said if I 1489 01:13:15,860 --> 01:13:12,960 were you I am doing confess that we did 1490 01:13:18,530 --> 01:13:15,870 there for each other and all you say 1491 01:13:22,490 --> 01:13:18,540 well why would you want to do a nitro 1492 01:13:24,860 --> 01:13:22,500 well we've heard it's a two-part thing 1493 01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:24,870 it was fun it was interesting that made 1494 01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:27,450 people think about saucers more it 1495 01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:30,930 served its purpose but certainly without 1496 01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:33,090 the egotistical satisfaction of having 1497 01:13:38,530 --> 01:13:34,489 people 1498 01:13:52,229 --> 01:13:38,540 we get it the sky is not a complete no 1499 01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:35,979 the issue and the best news absolutely 1500 01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:40,489 free box plus a bonus free email 1501 01:14:50,530 --> 01:14:45,250 newsletter sent out every Friday simply 1502 01:14:55,209 --> 01:14:50,540 address mr. UFO at web TV net that's the 1503 01:14:59,670 --> 01:14:55,219 mystery UFO and web TV net find out what 1504 01:15:33,130 --> 01:15:23,500 [Music] 1505 01:15:39,050 --> 01:15:36,770 we are talking to Bob Wilkinson its 1506 01:15:40,850 --> 01:15:39,060 director of a feature-length film about 1507 01:15:43,340 --> 01:15:40,860 gray darker shades of gray the co-host 1508 01:15:45,230 --> 01:15:43,350 is Greg Bishop our guests people who 1509 01:15:46,430 --> 01:15:45,240 knew gray Barker very well Allan green 1510 01:15:49,250 --> 01:15:46,440 feeling Jim Mosley 1511 01:15:51,410 --> 01:15:49,260 now in the film Bob did you enter 1512 01:15:53,990 --> 01:15:51,420 information that people maybe in general 1513 01:15:55,790 --> 01:15:54,000 didn't know about gray Barker I don't 1514 01:15:57,950 --> 01:15:55,800 know that it's information that wasn't 1515 01:16:00,860 --> 01:15:57,960 known I think it was an information that 1516 01:16:04,250 --> 01:16:00,870 wasn't widely known and and I would that 1517 01:16:07,100 --> 01:16:04,260 would be with his wife's Barker was a 1518 01:16:09,020 --> 01:16:07,110 closeted gay man no I don't think was 1519 01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:09,030 well known outside of his close circle I 1520 01:16:17,390 --> 01:16:12,210 think he kept that secret in pretty 1521 01:16:18,950 --> 01:16:17,400 tight and to me I think that that part 1522 01:16:22,670 --> 01:16:18,960 of his life is simple to understand 1523 01:16:26,870 --> 01:16:22,680 great mark of the character and I think 1524 01:16:30,580 --> 01:16:26,880 that I think the us are writing in the 1525 01:16:34,430 --> 01:16:30,590 investigation simply enabled him to 1526 01:16:38,780 --> 01:16:34,440 exist in the society he existed in and I 1527 01:16:42,710 --> 01:16:38,790 think you know from for me I can't 1528 01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:42,720 imagine living today in Appalachia in 1529 01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:47,130 West Virginia and to be a gay man much 1530 01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:49,890 less 1956 t-ruler Appalachia 1531 01:16:57,170 --> 01:16:54,810 and so I think that to me there has to 1532 01:16:59,420 --> 01:16:57,180 be a connection with that in the idea of 1533 01:17:02,210 --> 01:16:59,430 the men in black to him and I think 1534 01:17:04,190 --> 01:17:02,220 that's why that the whole story that he 1535 01:17:05,170 --> 01:17:04,200 put out there resonated so much with him 1536 01:17:06,310 --> 01:17:05,180 and 1537 01:17:11,259 --> 01:17:06,320 [Music] 1538 01:17:15,399 --> 01:17:11,269 I think that for some reason and I don't 1539 01:17:20,229 --> 01:17:15,409 know why he was he was stuck here in 1540 01:17:21,430 --> 01:17:20,239 West Virginia and he you know I believe 1541 01:17:25,569 --> 01:17:21,440 he could have been one of the big 1542 01:17:28,810 --> 01:17:25,579 writers of that time and in it whether 1543 01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:28,820 it be the sci-fi genre horror I think he 1544 01:17:33,339 --> 01:17:31,010 could have been one of the top writers 1545 01:17:36,850 --> 01:17:33,349 but for some reason another or another 1546 01:17:39,069 --> 01:17:36,860 he stayed in West Virginia and in that 1547 01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:39,079 period without the technology we have 1548 01:17:42,129 --> 01:17:40,250 today with the internet and 1549 01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:42,139 communication there was just no way to 1550 01:17:47,500 --> 01:17:44,090 kind of propel himself on a national 1551 01:17:49,959 --> 01:17:47,510 stage what was the UFO field then his 1552 01:17:52,419 --> 01:17:49,969 national stage or attempt to achieve 1553 01:17:54,910 --> 01:17:52,429 that kind of recognition yeah I think so 1554 01:17:58,330 --> 01:17:54,920 I think he enjoyed that I think because 1555 01:17:59,859 --> 01:17:58,340 I mean he was well known and when he 1556 01:18:02,109 --> 01:17:59,869 would go to conferences he was one of 1557 01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:02,119 the one of the names that people would 1558 01:18:09,209 --> 01:18:06,170 go to for expertise and I think he did 1559 01:18:11,529 --> 01:18:09,219 kind of enjoy that and you know it's 1560 01:18:13,839 --> 01:18:11,539 with me I'm speaking on pure speculation 1561 01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:13,849 because I didn't I've never got to speak 1562 01:18:19,330 --> 01:18:17,210 to Barker and that's the one one thing 1563 01:18:21,250 --> 01:18:19,340 in the film that I really wish I could 1564 01:18:25,180 --> 01:18:21,260 have I wish I would have done this you 1565 01:18:28,569 --> 01:18:25,190 know 2025 years ago but i but I'd like 1566 01:18:33,339 --> 01:18:28,579 to add something that brave Walker did 1567 01:18:36,040 --> 01:18:33,349 not have any friends locally except some 1568 01:18:40,029 --> 01:18:36,050 young memory and sexual relationships 1569 01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:40,039 with and he did not have a social group 1570 01:18:50,229 --> 01:18:45,130 he kept entirely to himself he had no 1571 01:18:52,799 --> 01:18:50,239 name of the organ cell or his soft Aryan 1572 01:18:55,569 --> 01:18:52,809 publications on the door of his office 1573 01:19:01,000 --> 01:18:55,579 and if someone came to the door he would 1574 01:19:03,250 --> 01:19:01,010 literally peacefully blind when he was 1575 01:19:07,839 --> 01:19:03,260 in location see so if we just wouldn't 1576 01:19:08,890 --> 01:19:07,849 open the door and the only friends he 1577 01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:08,900 had 1578 01:19:16,450 --> 01:19:12,530 were people in the saucer Springfield - 1579 01:19:18,399 --> 01:19:16,460 all of whom lived elsewhere one of the 1580 01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:18,409 main ones of course being myself and I 1581 01:19:23,350 --> 01:19:20,690 wasn't associated with him I always 1582 01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:23,360 drive from Clarksburg and I got down 1583 01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:25,610 there - three times a year and he got up 1584 01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:28,610 to the New York area and perhaps won t 1585 01:19:36,700 --> 01:19:32,090 you so he did not have a social life it 1586 01:19:40,180 --> 01:19:36,710 was rather a sad thing and with this I'm 1587 01:19:43,180 --> 01:19:40,190 sure that I asked him more than once why 1588 01:19:46,390 --> 01:19:43,190 don't you go and move to New York City 1589 01:19:49,810 --> 01:19:46,400 if you were living in graduates for 1590 01:19:51,899 --> 01:19:49,820 instance you would not would be noticed 1591 01:19:56,530 --> 01:19:51,909 you would not be picked on me you would 1592 01:19:59,950 --> 01:19:56,540 blend in with the whole culture there 1593 01:20:03,580 --> 01:19:59,960 and experienced a great deal more 1594 01:20:06,220 --> 01:20:03,590 freedom and could do more in your 1595 01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:06,230 personal life and in your career as a 1596 01:20:11,830 --> 01:20:09,770 writer and the essence of the answer was 1597 01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:11,840 and I could understand it he was brought 1598 01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:14,690 up on a farm in West Virginia back in 1599 01:20:20,740 --> 01:20:16,850 the 30s when they didn't have 1600 01:20:24,490 --> 01:20:20,750 electricity they all administration 1601 01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:24,500 because he runs well finally brought 1602 01:20:30,370 --> 01:20:26,330 them electricity other than the 1603 01:20:34,209 --> 01:20:30,380 boondocks and this was in the background 1604 01:20:36,850 --> 01:20:34,219 and he couldn't go beyond more than a 1605 01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:36,860 certain amount he was a college graduate 1606 01:20:44,169 --> 01:20:39,730 and there are many reasons that he 1607 01:20:47,020 --> 01:20:44,179 wasn't quite a bit above his family's 1608 01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:47,030 level of education and understanding and 1609 01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:50,690 yet without that psychological cut she 1610 01:20:56,350 --> 01:20:54,050 didn't feel comfortable and the truth 1611 01:20:58,959 --> 01:20:56,360 was that every time he traveled out of 1612 01:21:01,689 --> 01:20:58,969 the state and I was involved with some 1613 01:21:04,149 --> 01:21:01,699 of those trips he would tend to crack up 1614 01:21:07,290 --> 01:21:04,159 pretty much and he drinks more than 1615 01:21:10,130 --> 01:21:07,300 usual I'm just be miserable and 1616 01:21:12,500 --> 01:21:10,140 psychologically out of tune 1617 01:21:16,730 --> 01:21:12,510 and that's why he stayed where he was 1618 01:21:19,190 --> 01:21:16,740 and never made their demo but I think 1619 01:21:21,650 --> 01:21:19,200 Bob Wilkinson was just alluding to the 1620 01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:21,660 fact that this was a tragedy and that 1621 01:21:26,060 --> 01:21:23,850 indeed equal to make such a move but he 1622 01:21:27,470 --> 01:21:26,070 didn't true and I can speak to that a 1623 01:21:29,630 --> 01:21:27,480 little bit because of being away I'm in 1624 01:21:32,060 --> 01:21:29,640 West Virginia I was born here and I've 1625 01:21:34,340 --> 01:21:32,070 lived here all 35 years of my life and 1626 01:21:38,030 --> 01:21:34,350 there is something about this place that 1627 01:21:40,070 --> 01:21:38,040 kind of sucks you in and I don't know 1628 01:21:41,690 --> 01:21:40,080 what it is I really don't and I can't 1629 01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:41,700 play something and a lot of West 1630 01:21:49,780 --> 01:21:43,410 Virginians will get angry at you and you 1631 01:21:55,250 --> 01:21:49,790 say that that Jenny playing in winter I 1632 01:21:58,400 --> 01:21:55,260 didn't so much in the winter but my god 1633 01:22:00,170 --> 01:21:58,410 that place is cold yeah I love it cold I 1634 01:22:01,430 --> 01:22:00,180 can't stand that heat I'll say and when 1635 01:22:04,130 --> 01:22:01,440 I came down to Key West for your 1636 01:22:05,540 --> 01:22:04,140 interview that was that's too hot for me 1637 01:22:10,220 --> 01:22:05,550 it gets too hot here in the summertime 1638 01:22:13,100 --> 01:22:10,230 I'm gonna move to Minnesota okay you 1639 01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:13,110 know I live one year in Minnesota ladies 1640 01:22:16,970 --> 01:22:15,690 and gentlemen and you know I grew up in 1641 01:22:19,250 --> 01:22:16,980 New York City I was used to winter 1642 01:22:21,380 --> 01:22:19,260 weather but not like the winter weather 1643 01:22:24,740 --> 01:22:21,390 you have up there you know we're at 1644 01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:24,750 night we actually had a heater attached 1645 01:22:28,910 --> 01:22:26,970 to our car to keep it warm enough though 1646 01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:28,920 I could start the engine in the morning 1647 01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:31,440 it's like an engine tank heater and I 1648 01:22:37,310 --> 01:22:34,770 had this long electric cord coming down 1649 01:22:39,020 --> 01:22:37,320 from our second store window I lived in 1650 01:22:41,060 --> 01:22:39,030 the second store apartment so I think it 1651 01:22:43,010 --> 01:22:41,070 felt like two years not one year not to 1652 01:22:45,740 --> 01:22:43,020 denigrate the people in Minnesota our 1653 01:22:48,290 --> 01:22:45,750 radio network that we're joining is in 1654 01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:48,300 Minnesota they understand but this 1655 01:22:52,610 --> 01:22:51,330 wasn't my kind of scene I interviewed 1656 01:22:54,500 --> 01:22:52,620 your own Clark up there and is the first 1657 01:22:56,780 --> 01:22:54,510 time I've experienced my pants freezing 1658 01:22:59,870 --> 01:22:56,790 it was almost like you stepped out into 1659 01:23:02,660 --> 01:22:59,880 that cold and your pants just three 1660 01:23:04,790 --> 01:23:02,670 solid and Jerome Clark they were second 1661 01:23:07,580 --> 01:23:04,800 yeah it was interesting cuz I 1662 01:23:09,620 --> 01:23:07,590 interviewed mr. Clark up there in 1663 01:23:12,730 --> 01:23:09,630 December and then one week later I was 1664 01:23:15,860 --> 01:23:12,740 in Key West to interview Jim and the 1665 01:23:17,510 --> 01:23:15,870 different climates it was interesting 1666 01:23:18,820 --> 01:23:17,520 well now we'll have to see a totally 1667 01:23:21,670 --> 01:23:18,830 different climate now 1668 01:23:24,340 --> 01:23:21,680 that all the oil is coming your way have 1669 01:23:27,940 --> 01:23:24,350 you seen any of it yet well if you read 1670 01:23:33,550 --> 01:23:27,950 these sounds carefully at the beginning 1671 01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:33,560 there was a very oil would make return 1672 01:23:39,130 --> 01:23:36,650 to the east and come down around the 1673 01:23:42,370 --> 01:23:39,140 keys and then up the east coast of 1674 01:23:46,030 --> 01:23:42,380 Florida nothing like that has happened 1675 01:23:51,870 --> 01:23:46,040 yet with the closest that it has come is 1676 01:23:54,340 --> 01:23:51,880 in the western part of the Panhandle and 1677 01:23:58,540 --> 01:23:54,350 there are some of the beaches and all 1678 01:24:02,020 --> 01:23:58,550 that even some localism weather over a 1679 01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:02,030 longer period of time that the pollution 1680 01:24:08,410 --> 01:24:05,360 will reach the cheese and then over to 1681 01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:08,420 the East Coast is unpredictable but it 1682 01:24:11,410 --> 01:24:10,850 would seem unlikely the type of will 1683 01:24:13,510 --> 01:24:11,420 happen 1684 01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:13,520 I ain't certainly don't worry about it 1685 01:24:18,490 --> 01:24:15,770 I'm not a beach person to begin with I 1686 01:24:22,690 --> 01:24:18,500 worry about the fact that hurricane 1687 01:24:26,140 --> 01:24:22,700 season began June 1st and is predicted 1688 01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:26,150 to be virtually every year and with more 1689 01:24:33,390 --> 01:24:29,570 named storms and more serious storms so 1690 01:24:37,570 --> 01:24:33,400 that is my focus at this time the oil 1691 01:24:41,230 --> 01:24:37,580 spill as a horrible tragedy and even if 1692 01:24:44,110 --> 01:24:41,240 there were no oil reaches the cheese is 1693 01:24:46,950 --> 01:24:44,120 been written up very carry several times 1694 01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:46,960 recently but the economic damage to 1695 01:24:55,060 --> 01:24:51,290 historic industry has already occurred 1696 01:24:57,460 --> 01:24:55,070 and that will not be changed whether the 1697 01:24:59,710 --> 01:24:57,470 oil gets here or not because people 1698 01:25:02,530 --> 01:24:59,720 think that it might so they cancel the 1699 01:25:04,380 --> 01:25:02,540 reservations or not as a very serious 1700 01:25:12,669 --> 01:25:04,390 problem 1701 01:25:15,279 --> 01:25:12,679 [Music] 1702 01:25:17,410 --> 01:25:15,289 hi this is tomorrow from Namecheap where 1703 01:25:19,419 --> 01:25:17,420 domain name and web hosting company and 1704 01:25:21,399 --> 01:25:19,429 we really care about our 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twitter.com/zeromd bars on 1719 01:25:58,839 --> 01:25:53,209 facebook at facebook.com slash Namecheap 1720 01:26:05,040 --> 01:25:58,849 see you online you're in the darkest you 1721 01:26:11,009 --> 01:26:07,799 Greg Bishop is our co-host we're talking 1722 01:26:12,779 --> 01:26:11,019 to Bob Wilkinson he's director of a film 1723 01:26:15,209 --> 01:26:12,789 called shades of gray about gray Barker 1724 01:26:18,270 --> 01:26:15,219 - gray Barker's close friends Jim Mosley 1725 01:26:21,239 --> 01:26:18,280 Allan Greenfield or joining us Bob and 1726 01:26:23,819 --> 01:26:21,249 why to ask you now gray lived very much 1727 01:26:25,169 --> 01:26:23,829 because I visited his home once he 1728 01:26:26,790 --> 01:26:25,179 didn't have a very high standard of 1729 01:26:28,589 --> 01:26:26,800 living either I mean people think he was 1730 01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:28,599 very famous in the UFO field he wrote 1731 01:26:35,879 --> 01:26:31,210 all these books but you know he just was 1732 01:26:37,500 --> 01:26:35,889 barely middle class right like I don't 1733 01:26:40,229 --> 01:26:37,510 even know if you could consider a middle 1734 01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:40,239 class I think he was I think he was 1735 01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:42,570 pretty poor there toward the end he 1736 01:26:49,049 --> 01:26:45,730 getting moved back to riffle which is in 1737 01:26:51,989 --> 01:26:49,059 Braxton County and riffle hotels you 1738 01:26:54,569 --> 01:26:51,999 know maybe 20 people yes that it's 1739 01:26:58,759 --> 01:26:54,579 isolated out in the mountain today it's 1740 01:27:03,319 --> 01:26:58,769 I mean you're talking as the crow flies 1741 01:27:06,299 --> 01:27:03,329 maybe five to ten miles but it takes you 1742 01:27:08,370 --> 01:27:06,309 probably upwards of an hour to get the 1743 01:27:11,489 --> 01:27:08,380 ripples from the interstate to travel 1744 01:27:14,819 --> 01:27:11,499 that distance even today and he had 1745 01:27:18,140 --> 01:27:14,829 moved back into the mobile home that his 1746 01:27:20,489 --> 01:27:18,150 family had their on family land and 1747 01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:20,499 that's where he spent you know the 1748 01:27:26,189 --> 01:27:23,050 remainder of his life and I think well I 1749 01:27:29,009 --> 01:27:26,199 want to say his mother was Dick at that 1750 01:27:30,689 --> 01:27:29,019 time - was his mother sick at that point 1751 01:27:33,450 --> 01:27:30,699 when he moved back to respo in Braxton 1752 01:27:37,290 --> 01:27:33,460 County all his mother had died I'm sure 1753 01:27:40,169 --> 01:27:37,300 long ago he had a older sister that 1754 01:27:44,819 --> 01:27:40,179 lived in the area that you're talking 1755 01:27:47,819 --> 01:27:44,829 about it was right both of those oh yeah 1756 01:27:51,180 --> 01:27:47,829 both of his parents were long gone I was 1757 01:27:53,310 --> 01:27:51,190 just going to say his economics life is 1758 01:27:56,129 --> 01:27:53,320 rather interesting - he came from 1759 01:27:59,129 --> 01:27:56,139 poverty from a farming environment and 1760 01:28:03,149 --> 01:27:59,139 he had already moved to the city of 1761 01:28:07,620 --> 01:28:03,159 Clarksburg before he got into writing 1762 01:28:09,629 --> 01:28:07,630 about UFOs and I believe his book they 1763 01:28:13,989 --> 01:28:09,639 knew too much about flying saucers came 1764 01:28:16,660 --> 01:28:13,999 out in 1956 which was early and 1765 01:28:20,739 --> 01:28:16,670 career and that book could did sell 1766 01:28:23,950 --> 01:28:20,749 quite well in hardcover and it brought 1767 01:28:26,859 --> 01:28:23,960 about the expansion of his saucer 1768 01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:26,869 newsletter and if you had about 3,000 1769 01:28:32,830 --> 01:28:29,090 subscribers which was unheard of in 1770 01:28:35,890 --> 01:28:32,840 those days or indeed in these days and 1771 01:28:39,310 --> 01:28:35,900 he was selling books like man through 1772 01:28:42,489 --> 01:28:39,320 the mail and the point of it is for a 1773 01:28:45,069 --> 01:28:42,499 while there he was making out quite well 1774 01:28:48,250 --> 01:28:45,079 indeed and he bought a new car and got a 1775 01:28:51,250 --> 01:28:48,260 nice high-class office or Neiman 1776 01:28:54,180 --> 01:28:51,260 Berkeley female secretary another 1777 01:28:56,500 --> 01:28:54,190 amusing fact if he did not he usually 1778 01:28:59,859 --> 01:28:56,510 mixed with women if he could 1779 01:29:02,469 --> 01:28:59,869 pelvic making a long story short as the 1780 01:29:06,609 --> 01:29:02,479 years went by and he's still selling 1781 01:29:08,589 --> 01:29:06,619 these contactee books which is now many 1782 01:29:13,089 --> 01:29:08,599 of which he wrote himself or at least 1783 01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:13,099 had heavily we were you know version but 1784 01:29:18,689 --> 01:29:15,650 the older people that he was mainly 1785 01:29:22,330 --> 01:29:18,699 trying to storage and perhaps die out or 1786 01:29:26,229 --> 01:29:22,340 get tired of the same kind of books over 1787 01:29:30,279 --> 01:29:26,239 and over and over so his net income 1788 01:29:34,209 --> 01:29:30,289 decrease remarkably over the years and 1789 01:29:38,620 --> 01:29:34,219 by the time he died having moved back to 1790 01:29:42,430 --> 01:29:38,630 his roots as you pointed out and he his 1791 01:29:45,370 --> 01:29:42,440 estate was actually a negative state he 1792 01:29:46,930 --> 01:29:45,380 left nothing let me ask you here of all 1793 01:29:49,620 --> 01:29:46,940 the things that bark again we know he 1794 01:29:52,149 --> 01:29:49,630 did some pretty wild stuff we know that 1795 01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:52,159 there are certain obviously serious 1796 01:29:56,529 --> 01:29:53,570 elements about a lot of the things he 1797 01:29:58,689 --> 01:29:56,539 did do you know of any serious cases he 1798 01:30:04,259 --> 01:29:58,699 investigated other than flatwoods in 1799 01:30:08,350 --> 01:30:04,269 1952 what about that the Mothman 1800 01:30:10,959 --> 01:30:08,360 incident sure was pretty serious some of 1801 01:30:13,870 --> 01:30:10,969 the other cases people have brought up 1802 01:30:15,910 --> 01:30:13,880 Flatbush i believing little bit kentucky 1803 01:30:18,219 --> 01:30:15,920 and i think i was an incident in 1804 01:30:20,169 --> 01:30:18,229 kentucky that he kind of invested but 1805 01:30:21,910 --> 01:30:20,179 there towards the end he started sending 1806 01:30:24,489 --> 01:30:21,920 out people interested in doing the 1807 01:30:25,780 --> 01:30:24,499 investigations investigations for him he 1808 01:30:28,210 --> 01:30:25,790 was here of an event 1809 01:30:30,820 --> 01:30:28,220 and I spoke with a few people Roger 1810 01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:30,830 Paris was someone who would go out and 1811 01:30:35,380 --> 01:30:33,650 do things for him early on and when the 1812 01:30:37,630 --> 01:30:35,390 salsa ham was being published I think he 1813 01:30:39,220 --> 01:30:37,640 was even attributed being editor of the 1814 01:30:43,420 --> 01:30:39,230 sauce area was larger Paris for like the 1815 01:30:45,340 --> 01:30:43,430 first five issues and he would send he 1816 01:30:47,500 --> 01:30:45,350 had there toward the end of his life 1817 01:30:50,170 --> 01:30:47,510 there was a gentleman Richard Taylor who 1818 01:30:52,300 --> 01:30:50,180 would kind of I think it became his 1819 01:30:54,580 --> 01:30:52,310 driver would get into conventions and 1820 01:30:55,990 --> 01:30:54,590 things and but I think he kind of you 1821 01:30:57,610 --> 01:30:56,000 know after the mock mint 1822 01:30:59,890 --> 01:30:57,620 you don't see much about Barker 1823 01:31:03,010 --> 01:30:59,900 investigating and that was early 70 and 1824 01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:03,020 I think he became a collector at that 1825 01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:05,810 point a story there's evidence of the 1826 01:31:11,590 --> 01:31:10,130 archive shows and he begins interview I 1827 01:31:14,620 --> 01:31:11,600 think that back if there was the Carlos 1828 01:31:16,480 --> 01:31:14,630 tool indicates where yeah well you know 1829 01:31:19,150 --> 01:31:16,490 you've got a good point there as he got 1830 01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:19,160 older he did less and less for a 1831 01:31:24,550 --> 01:31:21,890 personal investigation you've just made 1832 01:31:27,730 --> 01:31:24,560 me think of hostility that I had long 1833 01:31:32,740 --> 01:31:27,740 forgotten I forget what year it was but 1834 01:31:35,550 --> 01:31:32,750 there was a man somewhere way out in the 1835 01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:35,560 boondocks of West Virginia who had had a 1836 01:31:41,020 --> 01:31:38,090 remarkable sighting that had been 1837 01:31:45,310 --> 01:31:41,030 written up somewhere and this fellow had 1838 01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:45,320 seen a saucer land with a very strange 1839 01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:48,890 with humanoid being in it and all kinds 1840 01:31:54,250 --> 01:31:52,250 of symbology and strange costumes 1841 01:31:55,090 --> 01:31:54,260 etcetera such as that's about all I 1842 01:31:58,990 --> 01:31:55,100 remember about it 1843 01:32:04,060 --> 01:31:59,000 and Barker and I and one of my goodness 1844 01:32:07,660 --> 01:32:04,070 to Clarksburg went out to actually meet 1845 01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:07,670 this man and interview him and it was 1846 01:32:14,350 --> 01:32:11,690 very funny a day earlier with the county 1847 01:32:16,660 --> 01:32:14,360 of errors that we probably knew where 1848 01:32:19,510 --> 01:32:16,670 this fella lived he lived in a trailer 1849 01:32:22,710 --> 01:32:19,520 somewhere way way out in the country and 1850 01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:22,720 we spent hours just looking for this 1851 01:32:29,830 --> 01:32:26,810 favor and just you know making u-turns 1852 01:32:31,590 --> 01:32:29,840 and going back over the same Road and so 1853 01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:31,600 on it was just 1854 01:32:36,890 --> 01:32:34,330 got to be rather annoying toward the end 1855 01:32:41,010 --> 01:32:36,900 and then we finally did we and he told 1856 01:32:43,950 --> 01:32:41,020 the kind of story that we had already 1857 01:32:46,620 --> 01:32:43,960 read his wife I remember was there on 1858 01:32:50,940 --> 01:32:46,630 Woodberry speechless and quite obviously 1859 01:32:53,730 --> 01:32:50,950 didn't believe a word husband story so 1860 01:32:55,830 --> 01:32:53,740 rather than contradiction lore and sold 1861 01:32:58,500 --> 01:32:55,840 us and tell us to read she just simply 1862 01:33:01,290 --> 01:32:58,510 stayed in the kitchen in a rural trailer 1863 01:33:05,430 --> 01:33:01,300 and just what they'd no attention to us 1864 01:33:10,140 --> 01:33:05,440 at all and I got the feeling that the 1865 01:33:12,540 --> 01:33:10,150 Barker overall did not enjoy the trip 1866 01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:12,550 because of all the frustrations involved 1867 01:33:17,970 --> 01:33:14,650 and I may indeed have been the last 1868 01:33:19,740 --> 01:33:17,980 cases he ever personally investigated 1869 01:33:21,540 --> 01:33:19,750 well you remember when they saw Alan 1870 01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:21,550 investigation was I know because he got 1871 01:33:26,580 --> 01:33:24,370 he either went to Carl Allen or Carlisle 1872 01:33:28,410 --> 01:33:26,590 and came to West Virginia and they're 1873 01:33:30,060 --> 01:33:28,420 still in his archives about six or seven 1874 01:33:32,550 --> 01:33:30,070 types of an interview between Barker and 1875 01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:32,560 Carlisle and telling this story you mean 1876 01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:35,770 Carlos Orlando colors of Linda yes huh 1877 01:33:42,360 --> 01:33:39,610 yes no no yes well let there you know 1878 01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:42,370 I'm of course not trying to hog Mike 1879 01:33:49,710 --> 01:33:45,250 here although I am but there that's a 1880 01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:49,720 fascinating story colorful Allende was a 1881 01:33:55,170 --> 01:33:53,770 very strange individual who I don't want 1882 01:33:59,700 --> 01:33:55,180 to go into all of it but he was 1883 01:34:02,280 --> 01:33:59,710 intimately involved with the case of the 1884 01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:02,290 Philadelphia Experiment were supposedly 1885 01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:05,650 this military ship had been teleported 1886 01:34:09,950 --> 01:34:08,530 from one Naval Yard to another and 1887 01:34:12,660 --> 01:34:09,960 there's a great deal more to it but 1888 01:34:14,790 --> 01:34:12,670 Carlisle another orthotics artist one 1889 01:34:18,630 --> 01:34:14,800 day was a little more powerful main 1890 01:34:21,090 --> 01:34:18,640 source of information and was quite well 1891 01:34:23,250 --> 01:34:21,100 known in the field but they're very few 1892 01:34:27,480 --> 01:34:23,260 people have actually met him he was 1893 01:34:29,670 --> 01:34:27,490 really a legendary figure and it just 1894 01:34:34,110 --> 01:34:29,680 happened to be one of the weak answered 1895 01:34:35,169 --> 01:34:34,120 I was in great or some when they knocked 1896 01:34:37,570 --> 01:34:35,179 on the door 1897 01:34:40,689 --> 01:34:37,580 and there he was he had come through the 1898 01:34:43,570 --> 01:34:40,699 great Barker without any forewarning or 1899 01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:43,580 anything at the time so I connect 1900 01:34:48,490 --> 01:34:45,290 whether he was interesting but the 1901 01:34:50,380 --> 01:34:48,500 hardly believable at least not to me all 1902 01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:50,390 I remember is that we went out to dinner 1903 01:34:58,180 --> 01:34:52,730 and I paid for the dinner 1904 01:35:03,160 --> 01:34:58,190 and as usual Jim you always paid for the 1905 01:35:09,370 --> 01:35:03,170 dinner everybody pays yeah well when Jim 1906 01:35:11,530 --> 01:35:09,380 pains nobody pays so deeply we'll had to 1907 01:35:15,189 --> 01:35:11,540 stay overnight in order to stay up late 1908 01:35:19,300 --> 01:35:15,199 and tell her story stream great so I 1909 01:35:23,410 --> 01:35:19,310 paid for his motel overnight which shows 1910 01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:23,420 59 and the evening went on and on the 1911 01:35:31,660 --> 01:35:29,210 gray and sour sauce and I drank because 1912 01:36:25,990 --> 01:35:31,670 I got tired of listening to all this 1913 01:36:28,930 --> 01:36:26,000 nonsense and I think in the mid to late 1914 01:36:30,370 --> 01:36:28,940 80s was when I indeed died somebody may 1915 01:36:31,990 --> 01:36:30,380 have better information bill more 1916 01:36:34,450 --> 01:36:32,000 actually met with him a few times and I 1917 01:36:38,140 --> 01:36:34,460 talked to him about that very strange 1918 01:36:40,750 --> 01:36:38,150 character unfocused rambling type what 1919 01:36:44,020 --> 01:36:40,760 listening to these stories from Allen 1920 01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:44,030 and and Jim I'm struck and and Paul said 1921 01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:46,250 Paul Kimball is here actually 1922 01:36:52,270 --> 01:36:49,370 with me I'm struck by the and Paul made 1923 01:36:54,060 --> 01:36:52,280 the comment that people in the probably 1924 01:36:56,080 --> 01:36:54,070 in the 50s and 60s in ufology 1925 01:36:58,689 --> 01:36:56,090 particularly people like Mosley and 1926 01:37:01,060 --> 01:36:58,699 Barker had a sense of wonder and a sense 1927 01:37:03,729 --> 01:37:01,070 of humor in playfulness but a serious 1928 01:37:07,300 --> 01:37:03,739 site as well that's missing now and I 1929 01:37:09,130 --> 01:37:07,310 said that yeah it's like in the old days 1930 01:37:10,780 --> 01:37:09,140 they are more like grown-ups who are 1931 01:37:13,270 --> 01:37:10,790 playing and being kids and right now the 1932 01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:13,280 people that are in the field that have 1933 01:37:18,610 --> 01:37:15,770 any sense of humor or whatever or more 1934 01:37:21,370 --> 01:37:18,620 like kids that never grew up and I think 1935 01:37:25,090 --> 01:37:21,380 you know why I'd like to get I just like 1936 01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:25,100 to add one thing they're one of the few 1937 01:37:33,610 --> 01:37:29,690 people in the field that somehow managed 1938 01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:33,620 to meet that carlos ind who was edward 1939 01:37:42,430 --> 01:37:39,530 you condom condom committee for some 1940 01:37:47,439 --> 01:37:42,440 reason carlos wanted to a medium and i I 1941 01:37:52,540 --> 01:37:47,449 did meet the Colorado project chief in 1942 01:38:00,040 --> 01:37:52,550 person once his office I suppose and he 1943 01:38:04,270 --> 01:38:00,050 called me as well he didn't fall at the 1944 01:38:05,950 --> 01:38:04,280 mouth but he had to say it's kind of 1945 01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:05,960 unfortunate I think that that meeting 1946 01:38:19,290 --> 01:38:09,890 ever took place because condom had every 1947 01:38:22,060 --> 01:38:19,300 offensively to bias so he should never 1948 01:38:24,150 --> 01:38:22,070 put in charge of a project like that but 1949 01:38:34,540 --> 01:38:24,160 meeting people like the und certainly 1950 01:38:36,939 --> 01:38:34,550 didn't all wanted to ask Bob a question 1951 01:38:38,770 --> 01:38:36,949 about filmmaking as Paul is actually as 1952 01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:38,780 most people know a documentary filmmaker 1953 01:38:44,860 --> 01:38:42,890 hey Bob Paul can well here I'm good I'm 1954 01:38:46,810 --> 01:38:44,870 a documentary filmmaker broke in Canada 1955 01:38:49,090 --> 01:38:46,820 made a few films about UFOs and other 1956 01:38:51,490 --> 01:38:49,100 things I saw your film and I just wanted 1957 01:38:54,850 --> 01:38:51,500 to say yeah I think it's really good 1958 01:38:56,470 --> 01:38:54,860 it's a tremendous subject and 1959 01:38:57,879 --> 01:38:56,480 I think a lot of people would look at it 1960 01:39:00,520 --> 01:38:57,889 and think maybe this belongs on the 1961 01:39:02,649 --> 01:39:00,530 sci-fi channel or space up in Canada I 1962 01:39:04,959 --> 01:39:02,659 think it actually belongs on the History 1963 01:39:07,419 --> 01:39:04,969 Channel because I think it's talking 1964 01:39:10,450 --> 01:39:07,429 more about a lost piece of Americana 1965 01:39:12,129 --> 01:39:10,460 that whatever UFOs might be or not be 1966 01:39:13,810 --> 01:39:12,139 I think the story of the people that 1967 01:39:15,790 --> 01:39:13,820 were investigating them looking into 1968 01:39:17,740 --> 01:39:15,800 them like grey and Jim those kinds of 1969 01:39:19,810 --> 01:39:17,750 people I think that's an important story 1970 01:39:22,120 --> 01:39:19,820 to tell and I think you told it well so 1971 01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:22,130 you know send Jeanne an email I don't 1972 01:39:25,720 --> 01:39:23,570 know what your distribution is like but 1973 01:39:27,820 --> 01:39:25,730 if you're not in Canada Jeanne can tell 1974 01:39:30,550 --> 01:39:27,830 you how to contact me I'd be happy to 1975 01:39:32,649 --> 01:39:30,560 try our seminal films for the handover 1976 01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:32,659 and entertainment one handles the US and 1977 01:39:36,550 --> 01:39:34,850 Canadian distributions if you've got a 1978 01:39:38,020 --> 01:39:36,560 one you're covered then so hopefully 1979 01:39:40,149 --> 01:39:38,030 we'll see you up in Canada sooner rather 1980 01:39:41,439 --> 01:39:40,159 than later it's a really good thing 1981 01:39:43,149 --> 01:39:41,449 okay I appreciate it that means a lot 1982 01:39:44,379 --> 01:39:43,159 coming from another filmmaker oh I think 1983 01:39:49,450 --> 01:39:44,389 you wanted to ask him something about 1984 01:39:53,620 --> 01:39:49,460 the bill no that's what we call a cameo 1985 01:39:57,669 --> 01:39:53,630 ladies and gentlemen hello yes we can 1986 01:40:00,939 --> 01:39:57,679 hear you oh I haven't communicated with 1987 01:40:02,709 --> 01:40:00,949 you and quite a while and I hope we 1988 01:40:05,439 --> 01:40:02,719 shouldn't be to write to each other 1989 01:40:07,270 --> 01:40:05,449 sometime soon yeah Jim Greg and I are 1990 01:40:08,919 --> 01:40:07,280 going to give you a call I think over 1991 01:40:16,510 --> 01:40:08,929 the next couple of days and pester you 1992 01:40:21,970 --> 01:40:16,520 so I hope where I structured my fellows 1993 01:40:23,500 --> 01:40:21,980 and I don't leave home at all for the 1994 01:40:25,330 --> 01:40:23,510 last couple of weeks and probably 1995 01:40:28,570 --> 01:40:25,340 another couple of weeks so call anytime 1996 01:40:30,970 --> 01:40:28,580 I can guarantee you that I'll be home 1997 01:40:33,070 --> 01:40:30,980 well swift recovery to you and we will 1998 01:40:44,030 --> 01:40:33,080 and I think all the listeners of the 1999 01:40:49,979 --> 01:40:47,459 for 58 years fate has provided true 2000 01:40:52,350 --> 01:40:49,989 reports of the strange and unknown fate 2001 01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:52,360 brings you the latest in all aspects of 2002 01:40:57,810 --> 01:40:54,250 the paranormal like angels and miracles 2003 01:41:00,240 --> 01:40:57,820 psychic phenomena ghosts UFOs and much 2004 01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:00,250 much more to receive your complimentary 2005 01:41:06,689 --> 01:41:03,130 fate magazine call now at one eight 2006 01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:06,699 hundred seven two eight two seven three 2007 01:41:42,330 --> 01:41:40,140 www.wku.edu/oucampus ship with a very 2008 01:41:42,900 --> 01:41:42,340 tiny cameo from another co-host Paul 2009 01:41:45,330 --> 01:41:42,910 Kimball 2010 01:41:48,300 --> 01:41:45,340 we're talking about the movie Shades of 2011 01:41:49,050 --> 01:41:48,310 Grey directed by Bob Wilkinson who's 2012 01:41:52,110 --> 01:41:49,060 here with us 2013 01:41:56,400 --> 01:41:52,120 we have two Gray's friends Jim Mosely 2014 01:41:59,520 --> 01:41:56,410 and Allen Greenfield now amongst the 2015 01:42:01,890 --> 01:41:59,530 things that gray did of course he wrote 2016 01:42:03,930 --> 01:42:01,900 about UFOs and all that stuff in his 2017 01:42:05,790 --> 01:42:03,940 civilian life he also brought motion 2018 01:42:07,350 --> 01:42:05,800 pictures into his area he owned the 2019 01:42:08,010 --> 01:42:07,360 motion picture theater eppley at one 2020 01:42:09,959 --> 01:42:08,020 time right 2021 01:42:12,900 --> 01:42:09,969 actually it was after the film was 2022 01:42:15,510 --> 01:42:12,910 released that I finally ran into a few 2023 01:42:18,390 --> 01:42:15,520 of the people who had who would receive 2024 01:42:21,750 --> 01:42:18,400 the movies from Brenda's theaters and 2025 01:42:23,700 --> 01:42:21,760 the drive-ins and he did control a lot 2026 01:42:26,189 --> 01:42:23,710 of the area and that was his day job I 2027 01:42:27,780 --> 01:42:26,199 guess you could say and I think that all 2028 01:42:29,010 --> 01:42:27,790 played into what Jim was talking about 2029 01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:29,020 earlier you know at the beginning of the 2030 01:42:33,750 --> 01:42:31,210 shadow where he did have that background 2031 01:42:37,410 --> 01:42:33,760 in horror films and sci-fi and he 2032 01:42:41,100 --> 01:42:37,420 operated in that genre alive and in the 2033 01:42:42,270 --> 01:42:41,110 film business and the people who ran the 2034 01:42:44,850 --> 01:42:42,280 theater the theater owners had an 2035 01:42:46,890 --> 01:42:44,860 interesting tag because you would I just 2036 01:42:48,540 --> 01:42:46,900 happened to say hey did great Barker 2037 01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:48,550 ever distributed any film here and 2038 01:42:52,919 --> 01:42:50,770 they're like yeah him real tall guy 2039 01:42:54,060 --> 01:42:52,929 awkward and he's there like you know he 2040 01:42:56,100 --> 01:42:54,070 was a weird guy and 2041 01:42:58,470 --> 01:42:56,110 and so I was kind of interesting to get 2042 01:43:01,770 --> 01:42:58,480 the the common West Virginians take on 2043 01:43:03,930 --> 01:43:01,780 grave marker in the area and what I have 2044 01:43:06,690 --> 01:43:03,940 done other regions announced another 2045 01:43:09,270 --> 01:43:06,700 reason the gray Barker's income 2046 01:43:12,600 --> 01:43:09,280 decreased over the years because he was 2047 01:43:14,670 --> 01:43:12,610 a film distributor in that parlor West 2048 01:43:19,050 --> 01:43:14,680 Virginia profit was the biggest in that 2049 01:43:22,430 --> 01:43:19,060 area but as time went on and the Dragons 2050 01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:22,440 became marginal and finally died out 2051 01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:24,850 obviously he had a few Miller Tennessee 2052 01:43:32,190 --> 01:43:27,610 were customers for his core business and 2053 01:43:35,250 --> 01:43:32,200 that was a loss which he did not get 2054 01:43:38,070 --> 01:43:35,260 over he didn't ever get any replacement 2055 01:43:41,700 --> 01:43:38,080 for that there was a time of a few years 2056 01:43:44,180 --> 01:43:41,710 when he didn't rent a deer in Buchanan 2057 01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:44,190 villages of town a few miles from 2058 01:43:49,170 --> 01:43:47,050 Clarksburg but he didn't make any money 2059 01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:49,180 is that either in fact he barely broke 2060 01:43:54,890 --> 01:43:51,970 even he told me he had this field 2061 01:43:58,200 --> 01:43:54,900 popcorn money in order to break even 2062 01:44:01,290 --> 01:43:58,210 which I thought was rolling music but he 2063 01:44:04,860 --> 01:44:01,300 wasn't attracted to films for the same 2064 01:44:07,350 --> 01:44:04,870 reason that he was attracted to UFOs he 2065 01:44:09,480 --> 01:44:07,360 enjoyed the world of pratical something 2066 01:44:11,250 --> 01:44:09,490 I heard a good story about and he would 2067 01:44:13,440 --> 01:44:11,260 take he was running like Marilyn Monroe 2068 01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:13,450 and Paul Newman bit-part movies and 2069 01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:16,210 building this the future Marilyn Monroe 2070 01:44:19,620 --> 01:44:17,290 or Paul Newman and they would be 2071 01:44:21,630 --> 01:44:19,630 featured on the marquee and you know 2072 01:44:23,460 --> 01:44:21,640 people would go to see these films and 2073 01:44:25,230 --> 01:44:23,470 they'd be in there for 10 seconds but 2074 01:44:28,560 --> 01:44:25,240 people would continue to go see them and 2075 01:44:30,210 --> 01:44:28,570 so he was even a I guess you could say a 2076 01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:30,220 character as far as that that 2077 01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:33,130 businessman and Jim it--whether told me 2078 01:44:38,760 --> 01:44:35,050 the story about the where he cut Allen 2079 01:44:41,430 --> 01:44:38,770 Hynek out of well yeah it's funny yeah 2080 01:44:45,390 --> 01:44:41,440 you were just I had a feeling you might 2081 01:44:47,850 --> 01:44:45,400 leave being that briefly he didn't like 2082 01:44:51,090 --> 01:44:47,860 allen hynek's at all simply because 2083 01:44:53,160 --> 01:44:51,100 hiring was too soon I did watch onyx 2084 01:44:56,610 --> 01:44:53,170 very much I only went up a few times he 2085 01:44:59,400 --> 01:44:56,620 is my hero in the whole you both but 2086 01:45:02,220 --> 01:44:59,410 anyway agree and I differ 2087 01:45:07,580 --> 01:45:02,230 and what grade did is just his own 2088 01:45:10,920 --> 01:45:07,590 little private joke every time a copy of 2089 01:45:13,980 --> 01:45:10,930 Close Encounters of the third time came 2090 01:45:16,110 --> 01:45:13,990 into his hands and of course honey chasm 2091 01:45:20,070 --> 01:45:16,120 that has a cameo role on there he seemed 2092 01:45:23,100 --> 01:45:20,080 briefly brave would cut those things out 2093 01:45:24,180 --> 01:45:23,110 of the foam before he passed it on to 2094 01:45:29,550 --> 01:45:24,190 the next person 2095 01:45:35,820 --> 01:45:29,560 so all those copies of that movie the 2096 01:45:38,790 --> 01:45:35,830 Ray ever touched a collateral - I think 2097 01:45:42,780 --> 01:45:38,800 for seven years trying to hear what 2098 01:45:45,510 --> 01:45:42,790 we're saying from the standpoint of the 2099 01:45:50,310 --> 01:45:45,520 general audience and there are several 2100 01:45:52,230 --> 01:45:50,320 things there kind of reduction to the 2101 01:45:55,920 --> 01:45:52,240 absurd certainly they're reductionist 2102 01:46:00,060 --> 01:45:55,930 and I do tend to reject and some of them 2103 01:46:05,910 --> 01:46:00,070 are even homophobic frankly the notion 2104 01:46:09,690 --> 01:46:05,920 that grey was interested in UFOs because 2105 01:46:12,060 --> 01:46:09,700 it brought him friends from afar that he 2106 01:46:15,450 --> 01:46:12,070 otherwise wouldn't have had because he 2107 01:46:18,930 --> 01:46:15,460 was a homosexual in a small town in West 2108 01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:18,940 Virginia is part and parcel of the 2109 01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:22,450 notion that the ceiling of the Sistine 2110 01:46:29,550 --> 01:46:26,050 Chapel was painted by a homosexual 2111 01:46:32,820 --> 01:46:29,560 person because it involved nude and 2112 01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:32,830 semi-nude figures I mean it is an 2113 01:46:40,200 --> 01:46:33,730 absurdity 2114 01:46:42,150 --> 01:46:40,210 Virginia because if it was a crutch 2115 01:46:44,250 --> 01:46:42,160 perhaps he stayed because he liked the 2116 01:46:47,340 --> 01:46:44,260 folk or it certainly shows up and it's 2117 01:46:50,820 --> 01:46:47,350 working and inhale spinning he wants a 2118 01:46:53,550 --> 01:46:50,830 West Virginia he was a quintessential 2119 01:46:57,060 --> 01:46:53,560 West Virginian apart from the fog from 2120 01:46:58,620 --> 01:46:57,070 anything to do with his sexual tastes 2121 01:47:01,610 --> 01:46:58,630 which I don't think really or anyone's 2122 01:47:05,450 --> 01:47:01,620 business and he chose not to be 2123 01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:05,460 I think that's sort of a I avoid the 2124 01:47:09,830 --> 01:47:06,930 subject because I think the more or less 2125 01:47:12,260 --> 01:47:09,840 close subject I respect that even with 2126 01:47:14,900 --> 01:47:12,270 the dead and all I can say is I don't 2127 01:47:18,320 --> 01:47:14,910 see any connection they're interested in 2128 01:47:19,730 --> 01:47:18,330 horror movies or or the genre dark films 2129 01:47:23,140 --> 01:47:19,740 so am i does that mean that I'm not 2130 01:47:26,620 --> 01:47:23,150 seriously interested in you hoes or or 2131 01:47:29,690 --> 01:47:26,630 cases that might be you might have a 2132 01:47:31,580 --> 01:47:29,700 reality subjective and objective I don't 2133 01:47:33,500 --> 01:47:31,590 know that there's any conflict between 2134 01:47:38,590 --> 01:47:33,510 those two things to the contrary I think 2135 01:47:41,510 --> 01:47:38,600 that the taste for the mystical and dark 2136 01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:41,520 reflect both ones reality and perhaps 2137 01:47:47,690 --> 01:47:44,730 ones spirituality as well certainly one 2138 01:47:51,650 --> 01:47:47,700 psychology doesn't necessarily speak 2139 01:47:56,210 --> 01:47:51,660 against anyone so let's not reduce the 2140 01:47:58,910 --> 01:47:56,220 man to tap explanations of who he was if 2141 01:48:01,970 --> 01:47:58,920 you if you talk to him we what he had to 2142 01:48:06,110 --> 01:48:01,980 say he was a complex individual with 2143 01:48:08,950 --> 01:48:06,120 complex ideas he was very much West 2144 01:48:12,530 --> 01:48:08,960 Virginian and very much a part of and 2145 01:48:15,020 --> 01:48:12,540 parcel to and witness to the folklore of 2146 01:48:17,780 --> 01:48:15,030 which there are many traditions from 2147 01:48:20,210 --> 01:48:17,790 tech hospitalist traditions to Lautner 2148 01:48:22,550 --> 01:48:20,220 and I think we need to see him in that 2149 01:48:25,490 --> 01:48:22,560 context I I think far better upgrade 2150 01:48:27,800 --> 01:48:25,500 that apparently some of some of the 2151 01:48:28,670 --> 01:48:27,810 recipe folks and at least that's what's 2152 01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:28,680 coming across 2153 01:48:34,490 --> 01:48:32,730 I think to the listener I don't think a 2154 01:48:38,330 --> 01:48:34,500 little gray at all I mean I find it 2155 01:48:41,900 --> 01:48:38,340 operable what he did and and I think to 2156 01:48:44,540 --> 01:48:41,910 to live that light in rural Appalachia I 2157 01:48:47,150 --> 01:48:44,550 mean I think it what the what society 2158 01:48:49,970 --> 01:48:47,160 did to him was criminal and I think that 2159 01:48:51,110 --> 01:48:49,980 it's central to Barker's being I mean 2160 01:48:53,270 --> 01:48:51,120 I'll drive right through his journals 2161 01:48:55,550 --> 01:48:53,280 and I've read through I've read through 2162 01:48:58,010 --> 01:48:55,560 those things and I think you can you'll 2163 01:49:01,070 --> 01:48:58,020 find in those readings that you know 2164 01:49:03,650 --> 01:49:01,080 that this is something that really was 2165 01:49:05,960 --> 01:49:03,660 central to who he was and you know I 2166 01:49:09,110 --> 01:49:05,970 can't help believe that that effect a 2167 01:49:11,420 --> 01:49:09,120 secretary writing and Simonelli made 2168 01:49:15,410 --> 01:49:11,430 musicals because he was all effect 2169 01:49:19,130 --> 01:49:15,420 that kind of slaughter no no no I'm not 2170 01:49:22,430 --> 01:49:19,140 the tortured homosexual image is I think 2171 01:49:25,700 --> 01:49:22,440 something that we had best moved beyond 2172 01:49:29,180 --> 01:49:25,710 and I reject it out and I mean it's just 2173 01:49:31,280 --> 01:49:29,190 it's a separate issue how why people 2174 01:49:34,010 --> 01:49:31,290 been discriminated against in society 2175 01:49:36,800 --> 01:49:34,020 and have they suffered for it yes same 2176 01:49:39,290 --> 01:49:36,810 is true in my people the Jews the same 2177 01:49:43,460 --> 01:49:39,300 is true of black people and that has 2178 01:49:46,550 --> 01:49:43,470 that motive they did the arts and comedy 2179 01:49:49,040 --> 01:49:46,560 and theater probably so probably it has 2180 01:49:51,410 --> 01:49:49,050 contributed to that but is that the key 2181 01:49:54,980 --> 01:49:51,420 factor and understanding why a person 2182 01:49:57,710 --> 01:49:54,990 does what they do or how meaningful the 2183 01:50:00,740 --> 01:49:57,720 work that they do is absolutely not and 2184 01:50:02,390 --> 01:50:00,750 I completely reject them totally Bob you 2185 01:50:05,150 --> 01:50:02,400 want to have a response before we move 2186 01:50:07,520 --> 01:50:05,160 on well I mean I spoke with some people 2187 01:50:10,820 --> 01:50:07,530 that are in the gay community and who 2188 01:50:13,010 --> 01:50:10,830 know a little bit of a marker and I you 2189 01:50:15,740 --> 01:50:13,020 know I draw my conclusions from what 2190 01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:15,750 I've gathered as far as reading as far 2191 01:50:20,990 --> 01:50:17,970 as talking to other individuals a new 2192 01:50:22,790 --> 01:50:21,000 Barker who and the one handicap I have 2193 01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:22,800 is I couldn't speak to Barker my phone 2194 01:50:29,090 --> 01:50:27,570 but I believe that that's a central part 2195 01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:29,100 of Barker scary I'll tell you what 2196 01:50:33,320 --> 01:50:31,530 should we take away through my life have 2197 01:50:35,810 --> 01:50:33,330 a walker this is an area where we can 2198 01:50:37,310 --> 01:50:35,820 discuss it but this is an area where 2199 01:50:39,530 --> 01:50:37,320 we're you only have a few minutes left 2200 01:50:40,820 --> 01:50:39,540 and we understand is a little bit of 2201 01:50:42,380 --> 01:50:40,830 disagreement here but let's just see 2202 01:50:44,450 --> 01:50:42,390 what can we take away from the life of 2203 01:50:46,040 --> 01:50:44,460 gray Barker whether you see this some or 2204 01:50:48,740 --> 01:50:46,050 not and I hope most of our listeners 2205 01:50:51,830 --> 01:50:48,750 will you know I like to think of my work 2206 01:50:54,440 --> 01:50:51,840 as very very original and original 2207 01:50:57,909 --> 01:50:54,450 contributions long before I wrote my 2208 01:50:59,649 --> 01:50:57,919 first book secret in time for these nine 2209 01:51:01,779 --> 01:50:59,659 and I didn't discover this until after 2210 01:51:04,509 --> 01:51:01,789 was great had written something you know 2211 01:51:06,429 --> 01:51:04,519 I one of my things is that the phenomena 2212 01:51:09,580 --> 01:51:06,439 in the occult world and the magical 2213 01:51:11,409 --> 01:51:09,590 universe and UFO and UFO connected 2214 01:51:13,870 --> 01:51:11,419 phenomena such as the men in black are 2215 01:51:16,469 --> 01:51:13,880 part of the same spectrum of things in a 2216 01:51:18,759 --> 01:51:16,479 different contact Gray had written and 2217 01:51:22,049 --> 01:51:18,769 probably he wrote it in the last year of 2218 01:51:25,000 --> 01:51:22,059 his life he said that I quote any writer 2219 01:51:27,790 --> 01:51:25,010 expressing path explanations has just 2220 01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:27,800 never studied occult tradition in which 2221 01:51:33,069 --> 01:51:31,010 the MIB are firmly established as 2222 01:51:35,259 --> 01:51:33,079 military secret weapons theories can 2223 01:51:37,810 --> 01:51:35,269 never explain you phones which have been 2224 01:51:41,169 --> 01:51:37,820 seen from the dawn of recorded history 2225 01:51:43,419 --> 01:51:41,179 CIA CIA could not be responsible for the 2226 01:51:46,540 --> 01:51:43,429 MIB who have down through the centuries 2227 01:51:48,639 --> 01:51:46,550 metal into our affairs and just as they 2228 01:51:51,790 --> 01:51:48,649 do today here's a Living Daylights 2229 01:51:54,699 --> 01:51:51,800 Taliban that's the death of the UFO 2230 01:51:58,089 --> 01:51:54,709 mystery - whatever his motivation that's 2231 01:52:01,089 --> 01:51:58,099 what great legacy is can put us in touch 2232 01:52:02,229 --> 01:52:01,099 with the gut of the UFO mystery Bob what 2233 01:52:04,569 --> 01:52:02,239 do you think we should take away from 2234 01:52:06,699 --> 01:52:04,579 the film and a life of great Barker well 2235 01:52:08,949 --> 01:52:06,709 I think great you know as we touched 2236 01:52:12,489 --> 01:52:08,959 upon did have that sense of wonderment 2237 01:52:15,639 --> 01:52:12,499 on any projected this is entertainment 2238 01:52:17,409 --> 01:52:15,649 and I think that you really get down to 2239 01:52:19,209 --> 01:52:17,419 the root you know coming from an 2240 01:52:22,389 --> 01:52:19,219 outsider because I by no means of mine 2241 01:52:25,120 --> 01:52:22,399 expert on the field but I think with a 2242 01:52:28,179 --> 01:52:25,130 great Barker what you get is a sense of 2243 01:52:31,899 --> 01:52:28,189 the UFO community the characters in the 2244 01:52:34,839 --> 01:52:31,909 field and these early stories that grow 2245 01:52:35,589 --> 01:52:34,849 out of it and I think that that's great 2246 01:52:37,509 --> 01:52:35,599 Barker 2247 01:52:39,399 --> 01:52:37,519 Jim what do you think we should take 2248 01:52:42,909 --> 01:52:39,409 from the life of great Barker well I 2249 01:52:46,629 --> 01:52:42,919 just want to state that most people in 2250 01:52:49,029 --> 01:52:46,639 the US and certainly most people that 2251 01:52:52,569 --> 01:52:49,039 knew them at all in this hometown did 2252 01:52:57,250 --> 01:52:52,579 not know the Barker was a homosexual 2253 01:53:00,069 --> 01:52:57,260 obviously he did not talk about it and 2254 01:53:04,130 --> 01:53:00,079 he was perhaps somewhat ashamed of as 2255 01:53:06,830 --> 01:53:04,140 far as I was concerned I found it mildly 2256 01:53:09,560 --> 01:53:06,840 I don't know how to explain that but I 2257 01:53:12,410 --> 01:53:09,570 was not offended by you our sexuality 2258 01:53:15,290 --> 01:53:12,420 ignore was i attracted to them with just 2259 01:53:17,510 --> 01:53:15,300 an interesting part of his character all 2260 01:53:20,030 --> 01:53:17,520 I can say if he was one of the best 2261 01:53:22,870 --> 01:53:20,040 friends that I had in my life and I've 2262 01:53:26,810 --> 01:53:22,880 had very few close friends and I was 2263 01:53:29,540 --> 01:53:26,820 very sad when he obviously was going 2264 01:53:32,660 --> 01:53:29,550 downhill in his last months and years 2265 01:53:35,090 --> 01:53:32,670 and and I was very sad indeed when he 2266 01:53:38,060 --> 01:53:35,100 died and that's really about all I 2267 01:53:40,340 --> 01:53:38,070 should say it was a wonderful 2268 01:53:44,690 --> 01:53:40,350 experiencing there's father my marriage 2269 01:53:45,530 --> 01:53:44,700 and such it will always be and I'm glad 2270 01:53:47,290 --> 01:53:45,540 that I knew it 2271 01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:47,300 Greg you want to make a comment about 2272 01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:49,890 how great Barker might have influenced 2273 01:53:55,340 --> 01:53:52,650 what you do well it mainly it's the 2274 01:53:59,450 --> 01:53:55,350 attitude to have a sense of wonder have 2275 01:54:01,220 --> 01:53:59,460 a sense of inquiry and also very 2276 01:54:03,440 --> 01:54:01,230 importantly not to take it horribly 2277 01:54:05,090 --> 01:54:03,450 seriously because there aren't really 2278 01:54:06,920 --> 01:54:05,100 any answers and there probably are 2279 01:54:09,860 --> 01:54:06,930 likely to be maybe in our lifetimes 2280 01:54:12,200 --> 01:54:09,870 there might be some but just the whole 2281 01:54:14,180 --> 01:54:12,210 you know attitude that he had towards a 2282 01:54:16,820 --> 01:54:14,190 community and and and towards the 2283 01:54:18,500 --> 01:54:16,830 subject I I take away from you know that 2284 01:54:20,540 --> 01:54:18,510 and that's a big part of my philosophy 2285 01:54:22,040 --> 01:54:20,550 of the UFO subject know the one thing 2286 01:54:23,900 --> 01:54:22,050 that happened I had no interaction with 2287 01:54:25,670 --> 01:54:23,910 gray Barker I picked up a copy of MIT 2288 01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:25,680 and black the secret terror among us 2289 01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:27,810 there was a phone number in it I called 2290 01:54:32,960 --> 01:54:30,930 it in 1984 and his sister I believe 2291 01:54:36,110 --> 01:54:32,970 answered and said that he had died like 2292 01:54:38,210 --> 01:54:36,120 not less than a month before which kind 2293 01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:38,220 of depressed me and that's that's one 2294 01:54:42,350 --> 01:54:39,930 kind of personal memory I have of my 2295 01:54:44,180 --> 01:54:42,360 connection with gray Barker if any Bob 2296 01:54:46,580 --> 01:54:44,190 Wilkinson tell our listeners one more 2297 01:54:47,840 --> 01:54:46,590 time where they can get a copy of shades 2298 01:54:49,850 --> 01:54:47,850 of gray and also get more information 2299 01:54:51,920 --> 01:54:49,860 about the film to get more information 2300 01:54:55,340 --> 01:54:51,930 about the film you can visit our website 2301 01:54:57,890 --> 01:54:55,350 they knew too much calm there's a you 2302 01:54:59,690 --> 01:54:57,900 can view a trailer there you can get 2303 01:55:01,280 --> 01:54:59,700 some more you know some sort of some 2304 01:55:02,990 --> 01:55:01,290 historical documents on there on some 2305 01:55:04,870 --> 01:55:03,000 links Philadelphia Experiment Lost and 2306 01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:04,880 Bracken coming monster and things and 2307 01:55:10,330 --> 01:55:07,530 you know you can most likely you can 2308 01:55:13,190 --> 01:55:10,340 find it at most of your online shopping 2309 01:55:15,010 --> 01:55:13,200 destinations amazon.com Blockbuster and 2310 01:55:17,320 --> 01:55:15,020 streaming and Netflix 2311 01:55:18,850 --> 01:55:17,330 borders 2312 01:55:20,770 --> 01:55:18,860 it's out there it's pretty easy to 2313 01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:20,780 define once you get digging around on 2314 01:55:25,210 --> 01:55:22,970 the internet you can't really do much 2315 01:55:26,830 --> 01:55:25,220 about getting much of Jim Mosley's 2316 01:55:29,140 --> 01:55:26,840 material online though somebody does 2317 01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:29,150 offer issues of saucer smear but for 2318 01:55:35,320 --> 01:55:33,530 those who want the real genuine 1,000% 2319 01:55:37,780 --> 01:55:35,330 printed version teller of sneers where 2320 01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:37,790 to go I thought we would never reach 2321 01:55:50,410 --> 01:55:42,850 this moment you can write to me Jim only 2322 01:55:55,600 --> 01:55:50,420 P o box 1 709 he west towards Key West 2323 01:55:58,480 --> 01:55:55,610 Florida 3 300 1 and what I would do is 2324 01:56:01,450 --> 01:55:58,490 send you a sample copy and saucer smear 2325 01:56:02,380 --> 01:56:01,460 and then tried to persuade you to send 2326 01:56:04,540 --> 01:56:02,390 us some money 2327 01:56:08,170 --> 01:56:04,550 so that you can get on our mailing list 2328 01:56:11,200 --> 01:56:08,180 and continue to receive these copies as 2329 01:56:14,890 --> 01:56:11,210 long as they're being produced and at 2330 01:56:18,310 --> 01:56:14,900 this point in time being very little 2331 01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:18,320 short of 79 I have no idea how much 2332 01:56:24,310 --> 01:56:21,650 longer they will be produced but as long 2333 01:56:31,030 --> 01:56:24,320 as they are you will receive them after 2334 01:56:41,440 --> 01:56:31,040 you made a paper give us that address 2335 01:56:43,240 --> 01:56:41,450 again Bo box 1 7 cold he was 3 300 in 2336 01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:43,250 Greenfield tell our listeners where they 2337 01:56:49,080 --> 01:56:45,410 can find more about the stuff you do 2338 01:56:52,150 --> 01:56:49,090 well they can go to Google on the 2339 01:56:57,370 --> 01:56:52,160 infamous Internet as Jim is want to call 2340 01:57:03,850 --> 01:56:57,380 it and my name is Alan ALL even green 2341 01:57:06,010 --> 01:57:03,860 tea on TR EE n fi eld and they will find 2342 01:57:07,780 --> 01:57:06,020 me in all kinds of places that I don't 2343 01:57:10,420 --> 01:57:07,790 even know about and they're more than 2344 01:57:12,610 --> 01:57:10,430 welcome to do so the first thing that 2345 01:57:16,359 --> 01:57:12,620 will come up is the Assembly of Solomon 2346 01:57:19,149 --> 01:57:16,369 which is my own website and they are 2347 01:57:20,709 --> 01:57:19,159 more than invited to come there and make 2348 01:57:23,859 --> 01:57:20,719 a donation if they want to and by the 2349 01:57:26,560 --> 01:57:23,869 way I hope Jim is around and doing the 2350 01:57:29,740 --> 01:57:26,570 war for many many more years saucers 2351 01:57:33,370 --> 01:57:29,750 fear is the only hard copy UFO magazine 2352 01:57:35,410 --> 01:57:33,380 that I still read thank you 2353 01:57:37,569 --> 01:57:35,420 Greg Bishop where do we find more of the 2354 01:57:39,250 --> 01:57:37,579 stuff that you do well I've written in 2355 01:57:41,470 --> 01:57:39,260 about two months but if you go to UFO 2356 01:57:44,609 --> 01:57:41,480 mystic I've got something like three and 2357 01:57:48,779 --> 01:57:44,619 a half years of commentary reporting 2358 01:57:54,359 --> 01:57:48,789 interviews etc to go through an archived 2359 01:57:57,010 --> 01:57:54,369 UFO mystic is the mystic comm and also 2360 01:58:02,439 --> 01:57:57,020 radio Mysterio so calm 2361 01:58:04,620 --> 01:58:02,449 ra d io m IST ER o SiO I think that's 2362 01:58:07,930 --> 01:58:04,630 how you spell it 2363 01:58:10,120 --> 01:58:07,940 domain that nobody can spell or fine yes 2364 01:58:12,970 --> 01:58:10,130 it's Mysterio so with a with an i 2365 01:58:14,560 --> 01:58:12,980 instead of a why and that has my radio 2366 01:58:17,140 --> 01:58:14,570 shows and interviews going back for 2367 01:58:19,810 --> 01:58:17,150 quite a while including interview with 2368 01:58:26,560 --> 01:58:19,820 the Jim I believe it's on there and Jim 2369 01:58:28,870 --> 01:58:26,570 doesn't remember well like I'm being a 2370 01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:28,880 lifetime celebrity I've done get so many 2371 01:58:36,450 --> 01:58:31,730 interviews that I can't remember all of 2372 01:58:42,669 --> 01:58:39,490 it was enjoyable to me and I of course I 2373 01:58:45,100 --> 01:58:42,679 remember it okay wilkinson Greg Bishop 2374 01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:45,110 Jim Mosley Allen Greenfield thank you 2375 01:58:50,649 --> 01:58:47,090 all for joining us this week on the para 2376 01:58:53,109 --> 01:58:50,659 cast I thank you my pleasure thanks Jean 2377 01:58:56,229 --> 01:58:53,119 it is nice to talk to Jim again and meet 2378 01:58:59,080 --> 01:58:56,239 you Bob and finally talk to Alan deaf 2379 01:59:01,720 --> 01:58:59,090 indeed let me remind you the power cast 2380 01:59:04,270 --> 01:59:01,730 is coming to earth well kinda sorta 2381 01:59:06,129 --> 01:59:04,280 courtesy of the gcn Network will be 2382 01:59:09,399 --> 01:59:06,139 heard on radio stations in many cities 2383 01:59:13,120 --> 01:59:09,409 in the u.s. starting Sunday July 11th 2384 01:59:15,729 --> 01:59:13,130 from 9 p.m. until midnight Central Time 2385 01:59:18,609 --> 01:59:15,739 will still be available online from the 2386 01:59:21,140 --> 01:59:18,619 Park ascom from iTunes and from other 2387 01:59:24,020 --> 01:59:21,150 sources for podcasts and 2388 01:59:29,360 --> 01:59:24,030 online radio don't miss it the power 2389 01:59:31,160 --> 01:59:29,370 castes coming to earth the pair caste is 2390 01:59:33,439 --> 01:59:31,170 a complicated presentation of making the 2391 01:59:35,959 --> 01:59:33,449 impossible Incorporated tune in next 2392 01:59:36,900 --> 01:59:35,969 week for a new adventure in the para